Stupid New Item Creation Rules

Anubis

First Post
Why on earth did they make the Caster Level a requirement for making an item now? Craft Wondrous Item can be gotten at Level 3, but you can't make anything with it until Level 5 now! What kinda dumb crap is that? Also, why do essential items like the Cloak of Resistance and Bracers of Armor have such a high Caster Level? Doesn't make ANY sense WHATSOEVER . . . Well there's one thing about the revisions I don't like one bit. Stupid, senseless, and it makes Craft Wondrous Item pointless until Level 5 at least, along with shortening the lifves of all wizards and sorcerers who now can't make an armor for themselves until Level 7, despite needing only double the level of the bonus to make the item prerequisite. I honestly can't figure out the point OR the logic.

Certainly I'm not the only one who thinks this is really stupid? I much preferred the old rules where Caster Level wasn't a prerequisite . . .
 

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Caster level was required under the old rules as well - only that Monte Cook and IIRC also Sean Reynolds claimed that this was an error. Still, it never made it into the official errata. So the situation has not changed at all. Houserule as you like...
 

I'd rather not be forced to house rule is the thing. I honestly can't figure out any other purpose to the caster level, seeing as it doesn't give any real benefits. Still, most if not all the caster levels are pretty stupid in the book. I don't agree with ANY of them to be honest. +1 weapon bonuses are even Level 10!

I just wish they'd have fixed the item creation rules once and for all.
 

I think they blatantly ignored the subject.

On p215 of the DMG it says, under Caster Level:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).
But then, under Prerequisites they say:
These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.
And in the Ioun Stone and Pearl of Power Prerequisites it specifically says caster level X.

So again were back where were started, the Caster Level mentioned in the Description is a prerequisite, but why mention it under Prerequisites. So
 

Anubis said:
I'd rather not be forced to house rule is the thing.

You're not. You don't have to house rule a thing. If you're on fire (assume you don't have fire resistance, so it hurts, a lot), and I show you a manual stating that being on fire is a good thing (for no apparent reason), are you actually going to adhere to the stupidity of the manual and just burn? No. You're gonna use your brain and put out the flames.

More than enough designers have come out with the fact that the inference of caster level as a requirement is a blatant mistake.

Anubis said:
I honestly can't figure out any other purpose to the caster level, seeing as it doesn't give any real benefits.

It determines dispel magic results, for one, and saves, for another. Pretty minor thing in the long run, but still nice to have. Just remember...it's not a prereq. For "other items", the caster level is usually determined by the function(s) of the item in question, but the caster level in and of itself is not a prereq. It's merely a byproduct of the functions of the item. Lower the power of the functions, and you lower the caster level of the item in most cases (if you want).

Anubis said:
I just wish they'd have fixed the item creation rules once and for all.

Have you looked at MEG's rules? I haven't had a chance yet.
 
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I guess I have never understood this whole argument.

We play the caster levels shown in the books for items that characters can create as the level of the specific item described in the book with the abilities, costs and DCs that that caster level implies.

As an item creating caster, you are free to make a lesser or greater item as long as it meets the mins/maxs for the spell used in it's creation. It simply changes the specifics of the abilities, costs and DCs for that version of the item.

The only reason to have the caster levels shown in the DMG is to define the level of a given item with the listed market value.

The minimums are defined by the spells used and the item creation feats required.

So feel free to create boots of speed that only last for 5 rounds intead of 10. they just cost less and are easier to shutdown.

Am I just a simpleton?
 

I just do not know how much clearer this could be :
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

The two paragraphs are one right after another, just as posted here. It's pretty clear that you to create an item you meet both of the following:

Caster Level.
Prerequisites.

For further evidence, note that "prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level," which differentiates between caster level and prerequisites. This phrase also further supports that there is a minimum caster level seperate from the prerequisites.

Mind you, I'm just reporting it as written in the new rules. I am not commenting on designer's intent here. There really is not way to reasonbaly read the two paragraphs together and conclude that the listed caster level for "other" magic items is not a requirement.

If WotC representatives wish to state that this is not the rule it would require errata.
 
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Artoomis said:
The two paragraphs are one right after another, just as posted here. It's pretty clear that you to create an item you meet both of the following:

Caster Level.
Prerequisites.
I continue to believe that Andy Collins misunderstood the intention of the original rules, was too stubborn to admit he was wrong, and then took the opportunity of the new DMG to turn his incorrect ruling into the new correct one.

But that's just IMO, of course.
 

I understand all that. The thing is, what about those items where caster level doesn't do anything, such as Bracers of Armor? The difference between Bracers of Armor +1 at CL 7 and Bracers of Armor +1 at CL 20 is negligible. In fact, the only differences are for dispel magic, detect magic, and saving throws of the item if unattended or in the hands of someone with poor saves. In addition, for this item (and most others), caster level isn't even a factor in the cost! (Bracers of Armor is "bonus squared x 1000, period!) So how would changing the CL change the price? It wouldn't!

Artoomis said:
I just do not know how much clearer this could be :


The two paragraphs are one right after another, just as posted here. It's pretty clear that you to create an item you meet both of the following:

Caster Level.
Prerequisites.

For further evidence, note that "prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level," which differentiates between caster level and prerequisites. This phrase also further supports that there is a minimum caster level seperate from the prerequisites.

Mind you, I'm just reporting it as written in the new rules. I am not commenting on designer's intent here. There really is not way to reasonbaly read the two paragraphs together and conclude that the listed caster level for "other" magic items is not a requirement.

If WotC representatives wish to state that this is not the rule it would require errata.

I know that, but my point is that it's stupid and makes no sense! Why would you have to be Level 7 to make Bracers of Armor +1, an essential item for low-level wizards and sorcerers? How about the fact that by Level 7, you can make up to +3 easily, defeating the purpose of +1? See what I mean?

It does appear, however, that this is indeed a mistake once again . . . Here is the OFFICIAL ruling from WotC themselves (NOT Monte or anyone else who may be working independently, but rather straight from WotC):



-- Can you clarify if Magic Item Caster Level's listed in the DMG are pre-requisites to creating these items???

They are not prerequisits. _They are the caster level at which the items are typically found. _This value can vary.



So it seems that despite the wording, the book is still wrong. Will they EVER fix this???
 

I agree with TuDogz.

And a lot of other things.

But here's what I think. The CL of an item is your CL, unless you specifically make it with weaker versions of spells. If you are of lesser CL than that listed in the DMG, then likely you won't be able to cast the spells at high enough level to attain the desired effects. You can create one with smaller effects and calculate the market price appropriately. As you said, Anubis, that doesn't fit very well with a lot of things, like +1 weapon enchantments that are CL 10 and things like bracers of armor or natural armor amulets, because they have a VERY specific formula for cost. Seems reasonable to me that the would have the same level requirement as a weapon or suit of armor of the same enchantment. Enchantment X 3. Or 6th level to make a +2 version.

Overall, it makes sense to me that just because I can cast the spells in an item and have the feat to create it doesn't mean that the same item created by a wizard 15 levels higher than me isn't more powerful. The CL should be a result of the items abilities, the items abilities should be a result of your strength, ie, your CL.

Clear as mud? :D
 

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