Sub-classes not counted towards Multiclassing?

[greycastle]

I've been thinking recently, because i'm a selfish bastard...

I've figured classes into Base classes

Divine Spellcaster (Cleric/Druid)
Arcane Spellcaster (Sorceror/Wizard)
Fighter (Barbarian/Fighter/Monk)
Rogue (Bard/Rogue)
Divine Fighter (Paladin/Ranger)

Now why should a character be penalized if he takes a few levels in a certain class but then doesn't 'focus' as it says in the PHB, but instead completely stops learnign from that class?

Imagine a Rogue3/Fighter2 (with a race that has Wizard as favoured class, for example)...now why, if that character elects to never take antoehr level of fighter, can he simply not gain any more levels, or suffer an experience penalty...

I'm planning on playing a Rogue, with 4 fighter levels...but i have no interest in 1. taking more levels to even classes out, and 2. i'm very un happy about the penalty...

now to do away with it completely is a bit hard...but perhaps to install a system, where if you declare to take no more levels *unless it's paladin, or monk which are specifically restricted classes* then you do no suffer penaltys unless you take another level, in which case you earn the -20% exp...it just would seem a little hard, as i believe many rogues would have at least fighter levels, Druids a few ranger levels, Cleric of lawful good dieties paladin levels, Barbarians a few ranger/druid levels...

Any opinons?

 

[Technik4]

Lemme 'splain someting

Ok, here is how multiclassing works:

1) You multiclass a combination of non-spellcasting heavy classes. Generally, you maintain at least a 2/3 BAB, your saves go up, and you gain nifty abilities from the universally front-loaded 3e classes. The only mitigating factor is multiclass penalties. Furthermore, each race has a favored class for which it can specifically ignore the only said penalty.

2) You multiclass a combination of spell-casting and non-spellcasting (or 2 different spellcasting classes). While you receive the same benefits as 1., your spellcasting suffers on many fronts and said benefits are smaller because of your base class (a spellcaster). This is especially true of dual primary spellcasters (sorc/wiz/clr/drd/brd) as encounters are balanced with respect to single classed "iconics" as the heroes.

The "fix" to the problem of multi-classed spellcasters seems to be present in 3.5, however rather than tweak multiclassing rules with regards to spellcasters, the designers felt it was better to design "iconic" prestige classes for perennial favorite combinations that are weaker in 3e than they were in 2e.

Now, how does this relate to your query? Basically, unless you are making a truly outlandish combination, multiclass restrictions are fairly easy to dodge. To date, I have never seen anyone willingly take a penalty, even though it may represent their character better.

For this reason, I would recommend playing with a house rule of a 10% experience penalty instead of a 20%. While it may seem like quite a hit, good roleplaying can more than make up for it; DMs tend to know the difference between someone who is making a character for specific min/max goals and someone who is roleplaying a character to the best of their ability.

The repercussions of such a house rule are slightly weakening the human and half-elf race, as part of their allure IS their specific versatility with respect to multiclassing. The other option is to completely ignore all favored classes and multiclassing penalties, however something (slight) must be done to compensate the human and half-elf.

If you are taking 1 rogue level and 4 fighter levels and then going straight spellcaster I assume you know that "by the rules" you are making a somewhat weak character. You wont have enough hit points to be a really good frontline fighter, you wont have enough spells to be a really good spell-caster, and you certainly wont have enough skills to pass as a rogue. My personal suggestion is to reduce the fighter levels to 2. This eliminates any multiclassing issues (as rogue and fighter are now within 1 level of each other) and allows you 2 more spellcasting levels by level 20, which incidentally is enough to achieve 9th level spells.

If I may wager a guess the primary reason for the 1 rogue level is to take it at 1st level and get max skills, and while this is a good choice, proceeding to mix fighter and then spellcaster levels is cumbersome. My other suggestion would be to continue the first few levels as a rogue, then switch to spellcaster (rog5 is pretty good or to eliminate all rogue levels and go straight fighter/spellcaster. Either way you give up feats or skills, but gain spellcasting.

Technik

 

[Staffan]

There are two reasons for the multiclass penalty:
1. Metagamingwise, it's there to prevent people from taking a whole bunch of goodies from frontloaded classes, like going ranger/paladin/monk/rogue to get two-weapon fighting, megasaves, even more megasaves and unarmored AC before focusing on your "real" class, rogue.

2. In-game, it models the difficulty of maintaining skills that you don't actually improve. If someone wants to leave a class totally behind, I would think that some amount of backsliding would be in order - the rogue who abandons his previous life to become a paladin would eventually forget that whole sneaking and lockpicking thing. However, that would be an accounting nightmare.

 

[Kaffis]

So let me get this straight. You want to play a rogue with 3 bonus feats and take weapon specialization, but after that, you're done with the fighter class. And your upset at being penalized. There's a reason specialization is fighter only, and that's to keep other classes from getting it.

What you're suggesting sounds a lot like dual classing from 2nd Ed to me, which was imo a horrible system. The multiclassing rules in our beloved 3rd Ed were designed to allow classes to get into their niche fairly quickly by being a little front loaded, but still prevent somebody from picking up all of these niche perks by spreading themselves a little here and a little there. It doesn't matter that your character has forsaken the ways of the fighter forever, he still benefits from those skills, and must work extra hard to maintain a diverse set of skills while at the same time 'dumbing down' his practice since he hasn't been actively improving on some of them. In other words, your Ftr4/Rog10 has to seek out different levels of stuff to practice (to merely keep fresh and useable) his weapon mastery and advance his thieving/sneak attacking skills on.

 

[Drawmack]

I tweaked the rules as such, it's simple and it maintains the human/half-elf prefered class bonus.

What ever class you take your first character level in is your preferred class, unless you're human or half-elf then what ever class has the highest ranks at any point is your preferred class.


Simple, elegant and balanced.

 

[Destil]

For what it's worth, 20% might as well be a flat out restriction, not a 'penelity'.

Since classes are abstract and mixing classes may be require to properly represent your PC, I see little need for any restriction aside extreme cases.

The current multiclassing simply enforces 2E eariler style combinations with exception of the favored class. While there are front loaded classes (many non-spellcasters and cleric with the right domain) this is more a problem of the classes than the multiclassing system.

So if you don't feel the need to stick to older multiclassing style combos, I'd suggest just ignoring the 20% penelity fully. Particuarlly if you allow prestige classes.

IMC I'm granting a 5% XP bonus when your highest class level is your favored multiclass, since I like the idea that some races are better suited to certian classes. Also to help curbe Prestige Class lust a little. (personally, I'm much happier modifying a base class 90% of the time)

 

[Plane Sailing]

There are two reasons for the multiclass penalty:
1. Metagamingwise, it's there to prevent people from taking a whole bunch of goodies from frontloaded classes, like going ranger/paladin/monk/rogue to get two-weapon fighting, megasaves, even more megasaves and unarmored AC before focusing on your "real" class, rogue.

Although even the current rules make the above idea perfectly acceptable for halflings alongside humans and half-elves... being a 1/1/1/1/rog5 doesn't give any exp penalties if your favoured class is rogue