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D&D 5E Subclasses, complexity and decision points

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
I've been mulling this over for a while, and my hypothesis is this: the designers' use of subclasses shows that they want to reduce the complexity of character building, but the various subsystems in the game show that they don't care so much about complexity of rules.

Subclasses are a single decision point for a player to make at 3rd level. Whilst, of course, the options to customise a subclass with the DM, or change subclasses if you are not happy with your decision exist, there are no character creation decisions within a subclass. In fact, taking the Fighter as an example, you select your race, your ability score assignment and your equipment at 1st level. At 3rd level you select your subclass. You're then one of the lucky classes, because you get to choose between feats/ability scores 7 times during your career. However, if you're a Knight, you're a Knight, like every other Knight, indeed quite identical given the defensive abilities of that particular subclass.

During actual play though, you get to make a lot of decisions. You have your Action Surge, you can take a Second Wind, and if you become a Gladiator you have new resources to consider spending. That's quite a large selection of tactical options, which is good, but the implementation is one that requires mastery of a new subset of rules. In fact, throughout the game there are quite a few subsystems that require mastery of new rules. If the very first thing you learn is to roll your d20 and add your attack modifier to see if you hit a certain AC, then ability checks and saving throws follow logically. Then some classes get expertise dice, so you have to add dice, remember which dice you're entitled to and when you're entitled to them - which checks and saving throws. You might indeed pick the Gladiator as your subclass, and then you need to track superiority dice, which aren't expertise dice, but they definitely don't fit in with anything you've learned so far.

In my opinion, one of the biggest breakthroughs in 3rd edition was the mechanical streamlining. No longer was there a different dice for initiative, for surprise, a different way to calculate whether you passed a proficiency check compared to whether you hit a target. Whilst the general rule, roll d20 and add X, still exists, I think the use of other dice to add or check in other ways is an unnecessary inelegance. The designers seem happy with rules complexity at the table, with an intransitive learning curve, and yet they seem afraid of letting players make character decisions during their development.

There's a glimmer of hope though with the ability score/feat decisions. If those decisions exist for each class - take a simple thing or a complex thing - then I hope we can see some subclasses implemented in the same way. I don't think this is necessary for all - it seems thematic that the Wizard in particular select their speciality school almost right away and grow with it - but the Fighter? Each path has 5 abilities, and presented we have 1 simple path and 2 complex paths. Why not instead offer 5 choices, each with simple and complex options, where the complex options use a universal mechanic (be that superiority dice if it must)? Sometimes even the most seasoned player just wants to crit on 19s, and sometimes a new player, with enough levels under their belt, wants to take a complex option, to learn that for the next time they play.

TLDR: Character development shouldn't be hardcoded by the subclass decision point. We can afford more complexity there, whilst we ought to reduce the complexity of the myriad of subsystems elsewhere.
 

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We've had several small choices in former playtests. They have one disadvantage, they reduce meaning. You criticize that all Knights are the same. But that's exactly the idea. There is a coherent and meaningful picture of Knight.
 

I don't mind a myriad of subsystems at all, as long as they're contained within classes. I'm all for each class (or subclass) having their own mechanical way of going about things.

I do not want a wide array of general subsystems, though.
 

We've had several small choices in former playtests. They have one disadvantage, they reduce meaning. You criticize that all Knights are the same. But that's exactly the idea. There is a coherent and meaningful picture of Knight.

As discussed in another thread though, what is it about the Gladiator that makes them a gladiator? If you want to play a defender, you have to buy into the coherent vision of the Knight, even if you don't want to be a Knight.

I don't mind a myriad of subsystems at all, as long as they're contained within classes. I'm all for each class (or subclass) having their own mechanical way of going about things.

I do not want a wide array of general subsystems, though.

The problem comes when these subsystems start to interact though. For instance, the gladiator can Drive Back an opponent if their superiority dice rolls higher than their opponent's strength modifier. If said opponent is a raging Barbarian, they have advantage on all strength-based attacks, skill checks and saving throws, but nothing about that prevents the gladiator from using this ability on them. In my opinion, it really should, the mechanics should be integrated to reflect this. Since we're shying away from modifying ability scores ad hoc, superiority dice exist outside of all the normal rules governing who is good at what and why - that's inelegant.
 

As discussed in another thread though, what is it about the Gladiator that makes them a gladiator? If you want to play a defender, you have to buy into the coherent vision of the Knight, even if you don't want to be a Knight.

Indeed. In this case you can't have the cake and eat it too. Either we assume that players make their choices for story or for mechanical reasons. You prefer mechanical choices. I prefer the other. Both is alright, but they won't work at the same time.
 

I agree that multiple mini-systems for specific class features are going to make the game needlessly complicated.

However let's keep in mind that (a) there will be Advanced rules to mix-n-match subclasses or make your own, a job which requires some effort but frees the player from fixed subclasses, and (b) undoubtedly there will be lots of new subclasses presented in supplements.
 

I've come around on the Apprentice Tier thing after mucking around with my Rules Cyclopedia. I think it's awesome that characters are simple to make at first, but get more complex with advancement.

Look at 3e and 4e. They hit you with all the games' player mechanics right away. There's no gradual introduction like there is in BECMI/RC D&D. This is a lot friendlier to new players, and I've decided I'm a fan.

-O
 

I don't mind subrules with subclasses. I think that is simply the name of the complexity beast, you choose an option with complexity you should be ready to play it. As long as classes have a simple option i think its fine. If the gladiator subrules are too finicky for your taste than play a warrior.

So with that in mind, my only big concern are rules like the expertise die, which is a subrule linked to an entire class (or multiple classes)...right now that is an added complexity you can't get away from. I don't mind it myself, but in the argument of increased play complexity it is there.
 
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If you want to play a defender, you have to buy into the coherent vision of the Knight, even if you don't want to be a Knight.

Not true, its simply one way to go. The tactical warrior feat provides a number of defense options for example. Heck, even a fighter who just moves in on a monster and gets an OA if the monster moves away is acting in a defenderish manner.
 

In the final edition I'd like to see them have an icon system that indicates the complexity of class, not just at creation, but through the life of the character.

Its fine to have apprentice system; I kind of like it. But when you look at the xp, the character will be 3rd level after 2 or 3 (4hr) sessions, so the learning curve will be relatively steep.

But, the issue of subsystem complexity is not a player issue, but a DM issue. For a game designed to have simple and complex players side by side, the DM must know all the subsystems in play, or make a table decision of simple classes only. This is a key decision point for any table and an important one for new DMs.

The biggest issue with increasingly player audience is not building a game for players, but one for new DMs. I starting to feel that the design team is not aligned with this design objective at the moment. (IMO)
 

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