Subtle Brilliance...

[Zoatebix]

The 2/3 rule just cranks everything back down to the core rules. I added this because it was important for Grim Tales to be more Core d20 friendly; UK sees no reason to do this for his Immortal's Handbook though he's kind enough to mention it.

I don't have my book in front of me right now, but I don't think the CR - EL relationship chart is any different between the two works. So does this mean that encounters with monsters are going to be more difficult than encounters with characters across the board (since monsters have had their total CR reduced without making them weaker)?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I don't have my book in front of me right now, but I don't think the CR - EL relationship chart is any different between the two works.

And they wouldn't be. EL is a relationship between CR. As a function, it will create meaningful output, given equivalent input.

So does this mean that encounters with monsters are going to be more difficult than encounters with characters across the board (since monsters have had their total CR reduced without making them weaker)?

No; I spend my time asking myself why UK accept CRs that are too high.

Especially when the 2/3 is such an easy fix. It's certainly easier to apply at the end that, say, taking a CR factor that UK values at 0.1 CR and changing it to 0.06666666666 CR, and doing this for every factor across the entire process.

If you churn a core monster through the Creature Creator in Chapter 13, and you apply the 2/3 rule, you get a pretty damn close approximation of the core CR. (I've done it many times, enough to be satisfied that, on the whole, UK is a pretty clever fellow.)

The problem with NOT having a single standard arises because of the assumption that 1 Character Level = 1 CR. There is no way that this can be constant in both systems if CRs are not constant in both systems.

Consider a creature that is CR10 in core, CR15 in UK.

Compare it to a party of 10th level characters.

In the Core system, the characters are CR10 each, which means that the CR10 creature is moderate. (This matches with what we know, understand, and accept from the core rules.)

In UK's system, the EXACT SAME CREATURE is rated CR15. Yet the party is still composed of CR10 characters; the party is the same. Suddenly the monster is more difficult? Such a system only makes sense if, instead of 1 CL = 1 CR, UKs system proposed 2 CL = 3 CR.

Grim Tales adopts the 2/3 rule to keep all expectations and outcomes as close as possible to core.

Wulf

 

[Victim]

It seems like the 2/3 CR adjustment for monsters might be reflecting the same sort phenomenon that the core rules includes in the difference between ECL and CR. A monster might not live long enough to use all of its abilities to their full extent, while a PC probably will.

I have another question about the CR system. What exactly is PC wealth going to get characters in Grim Tales? I can easily see PC wealth, after the first few levels, as being worth at least 1/5 of a character's CR in DnD. On the other hand, equipment, aside from the basics, seems far less effective. Cyberware is about 10x comparable magic items, and carries a hefty drawback. Magic items will be far more rare (and thus expensive) if they exist at all. Even high end armor is less effective and more expensive. I was thinking that the Second World Sourcebook's influence system might a good replacement for conventional wealth anyway.

Finally, I'm not sure I like the way some of the CR factors would work with PCs. For a PC, each +0.8 in CR factors seems to roughly equate to a level. But something like fast healing 1 is fairly cheap but makes a huge difference for PCs (and not so much for monsters). Similarly, +6 STR +2 CON would probably easily be worth a level for a melee character.

 

[BryonD]

It seems like the 2/3 CR adjustment for monsters might be reflecting the same sort phenomenon that the core rules includes in the difference between ECL and CR. A monster might not live long enough to use all of its abilities to their full extent, while a PC probably will.

That is pretty much correct, but see below.

I have another question about the CR system. What exactly is PC wealth going to get characters in Grim Tales? I can easily see PC wealth, after the first few levels, as being worth at least 1/5 of a character's CR in DnD. On the other hand, equipment, aside from the basics, seems far less effective. Cyberware is about 10x comparable magic items, and carries a hefty drawback. Magic items will be far more rare (and thus expensive) if they exist at all. Even high end armor is less effective and more expensive. I was thinking that the Second World Sourcebook's influence system might a good replacement for conventional wealth anyway.

I think you are correct. In effect, I think a typical 10th level GT character will have a CR of around 9. 8 CR for 10 levels plus 1 CR for equivalent gear of a 5th level character. Possibly less.

Finally, I'm not sure I like the way some of the CR factors would work with PCs. For a PC, each +0.8 in CR factors seems to roughly equate to a level. But something like fast healing 1 is fairly cheap but makes a huge difference for PCs (and not so much for monsters). Similarly, +6 STR +2 CON would probably easily be worth a level for a melee character.

This gets back to your first comment. Fast Healing is certainly worth more for a character than a monster. However, CR here really focuses on who would win a single combat. As such, for a single combat, fast healing is not worth any more for a PC than it is for a monster.

ECL isn't really adressed here. But I would say that the ECL of a character is equal to or greater than CR. In the case of fast healing, it would certainly be greater than CR.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

It seems like the 2/3 CR adjustment for monsters might be reflecting the same sort phenomenon that the core rules includes in the difference between ECL and CR. A monster might not live long enough to use all of its abilities to their full extent, while a PC probably will.

Yep, you've got it.

What exactly is PC wealth going to get characters in Grim Tales? I can easily see PC wealth, after the first few levels, as being worth at least 1/5 of a character's CR in DnD. On the other hand, equipment, aside from the basics, seems far less effective.

It's very easy to factor wealth/equipment entirely out of the system= 0.8 CR per character level instead of a full 1.0 CR per character level. (page 177). In a "realistic" game with no magic items and just mundane equipment, a 10th level character is probably really only about CR8.

Cyberware is about 10x comparable magic items, and carries a hefty drawback.

Tsk tsk! Cyberware is priced exactly as magic items. Remember that 1 currency unit (cu) is equal to 1 silver piece in D&D, or 1 dollar in the modern world. Anyhow, take my word for it-- I designed it so that any given cyber enhancement costs the same as a magic item would.

Finally, I'm not sure I like the way some of the CR factors would work with PCs.

Then don't allow them.

Folks, having a very detailed and exacting system does not abdicate the GM from his responsibility to apply common sense. (Take a look at the mammoth HERO system rules and the myriad ways that players have found to milk them for every conceivable advantage.)

I will point out that one of the nice things about the CR/EL system is that (unlike LA and ECL) it scales with level and just naturally phases out. +1.0 to a 1st level character brings him to CR2, and increases his EL from EL1 to EL5. That's a BIG reduction in experience earned.

Apply +1.0 CR to a 10th level character, on the other hand, and he goes from EL14 to... EL14.

It's nice not having to worry about LA or having to use additional rules for "buying off" LA.

On the other hand, you have to be careful that you don't add so much CR to a character that you over-value them (making them paper tigers). I'd never, for example, add +1 CR to a 1st level character.


Wulf

 

[BryonD]

Yep, you've got it.

Mind if I get picky?


Assume a 1 on 1 fight. If CR=CR then EL=EL and odds are 50/50.
If abilities cost more for players because "they get more use" then the player will have less to work with.

Obviously, I agree that players get more out of their abilities, but that is why CR has never equaled ECL.


If two PLAYERS fight each other they may have the same CR but different ECLs. Say, one player is L5 and has faster healing for +1 CR and the other is L6. Both are CR6 (assume gear included in levels). That should be a 50/50 fight and they both should be the same CR. IF the L5 fast healer wins, he will heal up and be ready for the next round, whereas the L6 guy will be drained IF he wins. So the L5 guy is more effective for the NEXT fight and therefore a higher ECL. But none of that effects the odds of the current fight.

If either of those combatants is instead a "monster",then the same 50/50 logic applies.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Obviously, I agree that players get more out of their abilities, but that is why CR has never equaled ECL.

As you pointed out above, CR and EL are designed solely to predict the outcome of a single encounter; and, as a measure of the threat of a single encounter, they can thus be used to award XP.

They can't be used to predict the long-term survivability of a character or that character's effectiveness in the meantime.

As for Fast Healing, I don't think it's that big of a deal, because I tend to think of encounters in a serial fashion anyway. Because I want the players to advance successfully through a series of encounters, I really only concern myself with how fun (threatening) each encounter will be and the likelihood that that encounter will cause a catastrophic end to the adventure.

Note, this is for a Grim Tales style game, not standard D&D. It's appropriate to keep track of hit points between scenes for standard D&D; I don't think it's nearly as big a concern when you're replicating a book or movie: nobody wonders how the characters healed up, reloaded their weapons, etc.

Wulf

 

[Zoatebix]

Eureka! I see the light!

I do have another question though - are there any situations under which the extra CR-affecting abilities tacked on to a character be subject to the 2/3s rule?

 

[BryonD]

As you pointed out above, CR and EL are designed solely to predict the outcome of a single encounter; and, as a measure of the threat of a single encounter, they can thus be used to award XP.

They can't be used to predict the long-term survivability of a character or that character's effectiveness in the meantime.

As for Fast Healing, I don't think it's that big of a deal, because I tend to think of encounters in a serial fashion anyway. Because I want the players to advance successfully through a series of encounters, I really only concern myself with how fun (threatening) each encounter will be and the likelihood that that encounter will cause a catastrophic end to the adventure.

Note, this is for a Grim Tales style game, not standard D&D. It's appropriate to keep track of hit points between scenes for standard D&D; I don't think it's nearly as big a concern when you're replicating a book or movie: nobody wonders how the characters healed up, reloaded their weapons, etc.

Wulf

OK, I can agree with this. And I also agree about Fast Healing. But that was simply an example for the mathematics rather than a concern itself.

With what you stated in mind, please explain the 2/3 multiplier again. I understand that this gives the "correct" CRs for the core monsters. But if the 2/3 multiplier is required just to get the official CR, then the official CR does not yeild a 50/50 match against an equivalent CR character.

A creature is calced out to be CR9 and then multiplied by 2/3 for CR = 6. This checks as "officially correct". A player runs one of these creatures as a character (or equivalently runs a standard L9 character). Because he is a character his CR is not run through the 2/3 rule and remains 9.

By abilities, this is a 50/50 match up. But the 2/3 rule makes it appear to be a 3 in 4 player victory. CR6 = EL11 VS CR9 = EL13. Opponent EL = Party EL-2

Right?

 

[Tellerve]

Quick question. Why does stunning fist now need an action point? Couldn't the times per day work just as well? If stunning fist was "too fantastical" then why have the ability to deflect bullets once a round? Or was stunning just too good in your mind?

In any case, I'll move it back to times per day, just was wondering what your reasoning was for the change.

Tellerve