Subtle Brilliance...

[Wulf Ratbane]

Sound right to you?

Sounds right cause you restated everything I've been trying to say.


Wulf

 

[BryonD]

Sounds right cause you restated everything I've been trying to say.

Wulf

As some wise dude once said:

"There is no try, only do or do not"

 

[Cheiromancer]

Sound right to you

Sounds right cause you restated everything I've been trying to say.

Wulf

Just a second here... I don't follow. :\ But I have the impression that something in the following is not correct.

Suppose you have a character with 15 CL and a +3 CR from being a werewolf (actual factors total +2.63). He counts as 18 CR for purposes of determining the group EL and power and all that. When the xp/character level is figured out, he gets 15 shares, since the xp is per character level (CL), not total CR. Since his CL is 15, he needs 15,000 xp to advance to the next level. If he were an NPC, he would also be a CR 18.

So what is wrong in this? You may need to explain it to me in simple, step-by-step terms.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Suppose you have a character with 15 CL and a +3 CR from being a werewolf (actual factors total +2.63). He counts as 18 CR for purposes of determining the group EL and power and all that. When the xp/character level is figured out, he gets 15 shares, since the xp is per character level (CL), not total CR. Since his CL is 15, he needs 15,000 xp to advance to the next level.

You're absolutely fine up to here. You understanding appears to be perfect.

Because the rules consider him CR18, but award him XP as if he's CL 15, he's earning less XP for an equivalent encounter.

If he were an NPC, he would also be a CR 18.

Technically he'd be CR15 + (2.63)(2/3) = CR 17.

As you can see, we are talking about an overall difference of .8333 CR on a CR15-18 creature.

It won't make any difference at all in terms of EL; and it will only make a difference in terms of XP if you are using a raw math method (X/Y) as opposed to the tables.

Wulf

 

[Cheiromancer]

Technically he'd be CR15 + (2.63)(2/3) = CR 17.

Ok.

Because the rules consider him CR18, but award him XP as if he's CL 15, he's earning less XP for an equivalent encounter.

Ok. I'm not seeing him advancing any slower, though. If you treated him as an 18th level character you would give him 18 shares of the xp/level, but you would also require another 18000 xp to become a 19th level character. (At least, if I understand the current rules about creatures with a LA, that's what would happen.) The (X/Y) calculation doesn't change at all, so he advances just as fast as a character with 18 character levels.

Incidentally, suppose this high level party had, oh I don't know, a Vrock as a player character. I know this is not low magic, but let's just see what happens: a vrock is CR 21.998, 17 after the golden rule. No character levels at all. Does this character earn any experience?

 

[BryonD]

No character levels at all. Does this character earn any experience?

By the letter of the GT rules. No. Base XP * 0 = 0.

Of course, if you are level 0, you only need zero XP to "advance" to Level 1 so.....

I think this ties into my issues. I even thought about mentioning this exact thing, but was in deep enough already.
I think Wulf's personal preferences come through strongly in places like this.
Which is cool, he wrote it, so obviously his tone is going to resonate.
But, I do think some very small tweaks would make things more flexible with no harm done.

A) Base XP on PC CR, not CL (God, a sentence with FOUR two-letter acronyms and only THREE real words)
B) Make the default rule be that special abilities are multiplied by 2/3 always, for monsters and characters. That way CR vs same CR is always a 50/50 fight. (Thus, the math ALWAYS works) THEN suggest that a low magic "Grim" game should not give PCs that 2/3 reduction credit so that they will tend to be heroes who look to the larger than life abilities rather than monster style supernatural abilities. Kinda have your cake and eat it too with one little nudge.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Incidentally, suppose this high level party had, oh I don't know, a Vrock as a player character. I know this is not low magic, but let's just see what happens: a vrock is CR 21.998, 17 after the golden rule. No character levels at all. Does this character earn any experience?

Set Grim Tales and UKs system aside for a moment, think core rules only.

Does this "character" gain any experience?

No. There is no mechanic for applying experience to a monster.

Experience is only necessary as a function of Character Levels. There's nothing new or unusual about that. If you want to allow a Vrock as a playable character, Grim Tales or not, and you want to award him experience, you'll have to give him at least one character level.

Experience is meaningless without character levels.


Wulf

 

[BryonD]

A vrock has 10HD and a level adjustment of+8.
A vrock with no class levels is ECL 18.
If a vrock gains 18,000 xp it gains a level an may become, for example, a vrock fighter 1.

A PC classless vrock gains XP exactly as any other L18 PC.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ok. I'm not seeing him advancing any slower, though.

Let's say the encounter in question is CR15, and the character is facing it alone.

If the character is CR15, CL 15, the XP per level award is 225 (300*(X/Y)) and the total XP earned is (15)(225) or 4500.

If the character CR18, CL15 +3.0 CR, the XP per level award for the same encounter is 208, and the total XP earned is (15)(208) = 3120.

That would be slower.


Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

A vrock has 10HD and a level adjustment of+8.

No rules exist for determining LA; hence my assertion that no rules exist for applying XP to a monster. LA is a crappy "fix."

EDIT: And don't expect me to chase around through the SRD looking for which creatures used in your examples have LA and which don't...

Wulf