Subtle Brilliance...

[BryonD]

No, GT doesn't decide they deserve equal XP. One character is CR6, all CL. The other character is CR6, a portion of which is fast healing. GT says that the XP award per character level is the same, but the character with fast healing must have fewer character levels, and earns less XP.
Wulf

I can't believe this slipped my mind before.
I wanted to re-visit this.

Again, everything comes down to 13.333 EL-4 encounters.

Say I run this PC vs PC fight in GT.
The fight is CR vs CR. So it is 50/50 and worth 300*CL for each.
CL 6 guy would get 1800.
CL5 Fast Heal guy would get 1500.

BUT

CL6 guy needs 6000
CL5 Fast Heal guy needs 5000

1800/6000 = 0.3 1500/5000 = 0.3
They both gain 30% of their needed XP for leveling.

Now, look at it in Core XP
CL5 Fast Heal guy is (assuming for simplicity) ECL7 and CR6 (We already agreed that D&D ECL will be higher for out of combat utility)

CL6 guy is obviously still CR6 (neglecting NPC/PC gear issues)

So in this fight CL6 guy would get the same 1800 (DMG page 38, Table 2-6, 1 CL6 vs 1 CR6)
He needs 6000, so he again gains 30% of his level requirement.

The ECL7 fast heal guy however only gains 1,400 (same table 1 CL7 vs 1 CR 6)
Because he is ECL7, he needs 7000 to level.
1400/7000 is only 0.2.

In GT either one of these guys will level after 3 1/3 of these encounters (assuming they live).

In core it is the same for the CL6 guy, but the fast heal guy will need to get through 5 encounters. That was the difference I was trying, and failing, to point out.

Another way to look at it.
Take table 14-4 GT page 184. Divide eveything in the third column by 75.
Now, forget class levels in XP calculations. Every time I get through an encounter I read the EL difference off this table and get exactly that number of experience point. I beat an EL-4 encounter (regardless of my level) then I get 1 XP. I beat an EL-2 encounter then I get 2 XP. EL-7, 0.333 XP. Etc...

Everytime my total XP is greater than 13.333 I gain a level and subtract 13.333 from my current total.

This works EXACTLY the same as the existing system.
It is just that the math is FAR more unweildy that the existing system, and it is COOL to have big numbers of XP.

So stay with the existing system, this one just does the same thing in a pointlessly complicated way.

So why go through it? To point out that the final absolute number of XP a character gains can be misleading.

While D&D and GT both give the Fast Heal guy a smaller number of XP, D&D gives the Fast Heal guy less progress toward his next level. GT gives the same total progress. Use the divide by 75 method and they will both get 4 XP. That won't work in core.

 

[BryonD]

BTW, I don't think anything in that last post is a bad thing.
I just think it is a real distinction between the GT system and the core system which make GT handle monsters or PCs with CR adjustments (aka LA, whatever) more manageable.

Obviously, dumping the 2/3 rule for PCs would put a very similar descrepancy back in, which would in most cases be a good thing.

But GT can advance diverse and non-standard characters without penalizing them as core does if that is want the GM wants.

I'm sorry that post was so long, but I did not have time to be brief.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Again, everything comes down to 13.333 EL-4 encounters.

Say I run this PC vs PC fight in GT.
The fight is CR vs CR. So it is 50/50 and worth 300*CL for each.
CL 6 guy would get 1800.
CL5 Fast Heal guy would get 1500.

BUT

CL6 guy needs 6000
CL5 Fast Heal guy needs 5000

1800/6000 = 0.3 1500/5000 = 0.3
They both gain 30% of their needed XP for leveling.

I'm with you so far. You haven't really said anything revelationary. Anytime a character fights a 50/50 fight, he'll get 30% of his advancment towards the next level (or, 3 1/3). Same in GT and core.

Now, look at it in Core XP
CL5 Fast Heal guy is (assuming for simplicity) ECL7 and CR6 (We already agreed that D&D ECL will be higher for out of combat utility)

Now whoa there. This is the start of the problem... Why wouldn't you assume (for the sake of simplicity) that the CL5 Fast Heal guy is ECL6 and CR6? If you assume he's CR7 (or ECL7) you've just made the fight relatively easier.

CL6 guy is obviously still CR6 (neglecting NPC/PC gear issues)

So in this fight CL6 guy would get the same 1800 ... The ECL7 fast heal guy however only gains 1,400.

What you just said was that a CR7 character doesn't earn as much from a CR6 fight as a CR6 character earns from a CR6 fight. That's not revelationary.

In GT either one of these guys will level after 3 1/3 of these encounters (assuming they live).

In GT, a character will level after 3 1/3 encounters that are 50/50.

But ECL7 vs CR6 is no longer 50/50!

You go from comparing apples to apples to oranges to apples.

GT and core handle this situation exactly the same. If you take a GT character that is CR7 vs. CR6, according to Table 14-4 it's EL12 vs. EL11 and a gain of 200 XP/CL.

If he's CR7/CL7, he gains 1400 XP, or 20% of the 7000 needed to level.

If his CR7 was composed of CL5 + 2 CR, he would gain 1000 XP, or 20% of the 5000 needed to level.

GT awards experience points at the exact same rate as core.

I want to direct you back to post #149 (page 8).

Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Let me ask you a quick question before the window slams shut on this brief glimmer of my beginning to understand your position:

If an ECL18 Vrock PC fights an ECL18 Vrock PC in core, how many XP should he earn? How many XP does he earn?

 

[BryonD]

I'm with you so far. You haven't really said anything revelationary. Anytime a character fights a 50/50 fight, he'll get 30% of his advancment towards the next level (or, 3 1/3). Same in GT and core.



Now whoa there. This is the start of the problem... Why wouldn't you assume (for the sake of simplicity) that the CL5 Fast Heal guy is ECL6 and CR6? If you assume he's CR7 (or ECL7) you've just made the fight relatively easier.

I thought we had already reached agreement here.
Fast Heal guy with exactly +1 CR worth of fast heal and 5 CL is the same CR as 6 CL guy. That, by defintion, is a 50/50 fight in GT.

However, IF the fast heal guys is the winner he will recover quickly and be more prepared for the next combat. Thus considering combat AND outside combat abilities, ECL is frequently greater than CR in core. Is this example perfect? I don't know. Instead of Fast Heal, just call it "Special Ability A". Either way it is an ability whose utility beyond combat makes his ECL > his CR.

I think you made one erroneous statement in there. You said that a 50/50 fight gives 30% XP "in core". That is true for standard characters, but stops being true for creatures with LAs. (See examples below)

GT uses CR to determine BASE XP and then multiplies by CL.
Core uses CL (or ECL) as both CR and CL.
As long as CR=CL (always true for standard characters) then your statement is true. But as soon as special abilties make CR != CL GT starts using two different numbers in to the same formula where core only uses one number. Obviously putting different numbers in the same equation will yield different answers.

What you just said was that a CR7 character doesn't earn as much from a CR6 fight as a CR6 character earns from a CR6 fight. That's not revelationary.

In GT, a character will level after 3 1/3 encounters that are 50/50.

But ECL7 vs CR6 is no longer 50/50!

You go from comparing apples to apples to oranges to apples.

But it is CR6 vs CR6. We already agreed that ECL != CR.
ECL7 vs CR6 is insufficient data to reach a conclusion.
CR6 vs CR6 IS 50/50 and the ECLs are irrellevant. (Irrevant to the 50/50 part, CL does come back in for final exact XP award of course, but it is always the same 30% fraction of current level)

GT and core handle this situation exactly the same. If you take a GT character that is CR7 vs. CR6, according to Table 14-4 it's EL12 vs. EL11 and a gain of 200 XP/CL.

If he's CR7/CL7, he gains 1400 XP, or 20% of the 7000 needed to level.

If his CR7 was composed of CL5 + 2 CR, he would gain 1000 XP, or 20% of the 5000 needed to level.

GT awards experience points at the exact same rate as core.

I want to direct you back to post #149 (page 8).

Wulf

But he is not CR7, he is CR6 and ECL7.
CL5 and +1 CR of Special Ability A = CR 6
CR != ECL
Special Ability A is worth +1 CR and at the same time worth +2 LA. This is not at all uncommon.
The Half Dragon on page 146 is CR6 and ECL7 (Thus, if he fought his clone, a 50/50 fight by defintion, he would get less than 30% XP to level)
The Half Fiend is CR9 and ECL11 (Again, less than 30% XP for fighting his clone)

GT uses the same formula for determining XP, but, as written, the data entered can vary from core.

In regard to post 149, I agree with Cheiromancer's response. They are gaining levels at the same pace, therefore the lower quantity of XP does not define slower advancement.

 

[BryonD]

Let me ask you a quick question before the window slams shut on this brief glimmer of my beginning to understand your position:

If an ECL18 Vrock PC fights an ECL18 Vrock PC in core, how many XP should he earn? How many XP does he earn?

A Vrock is ECL18 but CR9.
Thus, by the core rules, he would be below the chart.

And no, I do not claim that this makes a lot of sense. I think that is where over-pricing special characters can get out of hand. This actually bends back to my earlier point about allowing characters to not pay the premium cost in some cases.

Let's look at GT.
A Vrock is CR17, and just to avoid the whole "classless" thing we'll tack on 1 CL for CR = 18.

Now, if he fights his clone it is CR vs CR so he should get 30% of his required XP for this fight (300 in this case).

BUT we must apply the 2/3 rule to clone, because it is a "monster", then things change. The monster's CR is now 11 +1 CL = CR12.
Unless we also apply that 2/3 credit to the PC we get:
PC is CR18 = EL17; Monster is CR12 = EL15
Now the PC only gets 150 XP for winning an encounter at -2 EL.

Is that fair? From a strict math PoV, no.
But, if you want to discourage monster characters, then this is the "fair" price that is paid.
The monster Vrock is CR12 and thus would be considered a 50/50 fight for a Strong12 character.
Thus a Vrock character SHOULD be CR12 unless you want to apply an XP penalty for simply being a non-standard character. Which is very often a completely valid choice.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

A Vrock is ECL18 but CR9.
Thus, by the core rules, he would be below the chart.

And no, I do not claim that this makes a lot of sense.

It makes NO sense. ECL sucks. It's a terrible, unfinished, unwieldy ruleset. Which is why I was so eager to adapt UKs system to my purposes.

Let's look at GT.
A Vrock is CR17, and just to avoid the whole "classless" thing we'll tack on 1 CL for CR = 18. Now, if he fights his clone it is CR vs CR so he should get 30% of his required XP for this fight (300 in this case).

BUT we must apply the 2/3 rule to clone, because it is a "monster", then things change. The monster's CR is now 11 +1 CL = CR12. PC is CR18 = EL17; Monster is CR12 = EL15. Now the PC only gets 150 XP for winning an encounter at -2 EL.

All correct.

Is that fair? From a strict math PoV, no.
But, if you want to discourage monster characters, then this is the "fair" price that is paid.

Summary:

Core rules: Vrock character gains no XP when he fights his clone. He's "off the chart."

GT: Vrock character gains 1/2 the normal XP against his clone; this is the "fair" price for playing a monster and meets the definition of "slower advancement."

So to run down the list of differences between the two approaches:

The core rules require you to know HD, LA, ECL, and CR. You can't play creatures that don't have a LA listed. And when you play creatures with a large LA, you're often going to find yourself "off the chart" against enemies that should otherwise be a fair fight. If you purchased Unearthed Arcana, you can rectify this by using the "Buy Off LA" option therein.

GT rules require you to know your character level and your total CR. You can play any monster you like. You can add abilities a la carte-- for example, instead of adding the vampire template all at once, you could add a little bit at a time (see GT example). When you face an "equivalent" monster, you'll earn less XP than normal as the price for playing a monster.

Specifically, the maximum XP penalty will be either 1/2 (using the tables) or 4/9 (using X/Y method). The more of your CR is composed of CL, the less your penalty: As you add character levels to your CR, you will gradually offset the 2/3 penalty that is being applied to your non-CL CR. Note that this happens automatically and requires no thought, effort, or additional rules.

One last recap with some numbers:

A CR18 character that is CL1 + CR17 (such as the Vrock) faces his clone (who, due to the 2/3 rule, is CR17*(2/3) + CL1, or CR12. We normally expect to earn 300 XP for a clone matchup. Due to the 2/3 rule, he only earns 150 XP.

X/Y version for Chi Rho:
The CR18 character (power 324) vs his CR12 clone (power 144) yields 133 XP, very close to (300*4/9)

Let's look at another example, more CL, less CR:

A CR18 character who is CL15 + CR3 faces his clone, who is CR3(2/3) + CL15, or CR17. We normally expect a character to earn 300 xp/level for a clone matchup. Because CR18 and CR17 are equivalent EL according to GT, he earns a full 300 xp/level.

X/Y version for Chi Rho:
The CR18 character (power 324) vs his CR17 clone (power 289) yields 268 XP.


Wulf

 

[BryonD]

It makes NO sense. ECL sucks. It's a terrible, unfinished, unwieldy ruleset. Which is why I was so eager to adapt UKs system to my purposes.

Agreed, though maybe not as emphatically.
The raw concept of +X levels to get an equivalent character is solid.
GT does the same thing only both A)more thoughtfully overall and B) with the clever evolution of making a distinction between CL and CR (+X CR avoids these bizarro Vrock issues)

WotC clearly uses some strange finger in the wind approach (bad) and their finger appears to be seriously miscalibrated at times (much worse). But I've never been shy about tossing a bad rule or value and replacing it with one that works.

All correct.


Summary:

Core rules: Vrock character gains no XP when he fights his clone. He's "off the chart."

GT: Vrock character gains 1/2 the normal XP against his clone; this is the "fair" price for playing a monster and meets the definition of "slower advancement."

So to run down the list of differences between the two approaches:

The core rules require you to know HD, LA, ECL, and CR. You can't play creatures that don't have a LA listed. And when you play creatures with a large LA, you're often going to find yourself "off the chart" against enemies that should otherwise be a fair fight. If you purchased Unearthed Arcana, you can rectify this by using the "Buy Off LA" option therein.

GT rules require you to know your character level and your total CR. You can play any monster you like. You can add abilities a la carte-- for example, instead of adding the vampire template all at once, you could add a little bit at a time (see GT example). When you face an "equivalent" monster, you'll earn less XP than normal as the price for playing a monster.

Specifically, the maximum XP penalty will be either 1/2 (using the tables) or 4/9 (using X/Y method). The more of your CR is composed of CL, the less your penalty: As you add character levels to your CR, you will gradually offset the 2/3 penalty that is being applied to your non-CL CR. Note that this happens automatically and requires no thought, effort, or additional rules.

One last recap with some numbers:

A CR18 character that is CL1 + CR17 (such as the Vrock) faces his clone (who, due to the 2/3 rule, is CR17*(2/3) + CL1, or CR12. We normally expect to earn 300 XP for a clone matchup. Due to the 2/3 rule, he only earns 150 XP.

X/Y version for Chi Rho:
The CR18 character (power 324) vs his CR12 clone (power 144) yields 133 XP, very close to (300*4/9)

Let's look at another example, more CL, less CR:

A CR18 character who is CL15 + CR3 faces his clone, who is CR3(2/3) + CL15, or CR17. We normally expect a character to earn 300 xp/level for a clone matchup. Because CR18 and CR17 are equivalent EL according to GT, he earns a full 300 xp/level.

X/Y version for Chi Rho:
The CR18 character (power 324) vs his CR17 clone (power 289) yields 268 XP.


Wulf

*relief*

Yes.
This is what I have been saying.
The ECL7/CR6 guy gets handled differently in GT than in core in the same way the Vrock is handled differently in GT than in core. Just the Vrock is an example taken to its extreme core malfunction.

You are correct that in some cases the change in CR may end up in the same EL, and thus the rounding built into the GT tables makes the difference go away at some times. When your example character reaches CL17 he will be CR20 (EL18) while his clone will be CL19 (EL17). So the difference will pop in and out depending on where you are.

Which again is a stength of GT. As you pointed out before, because ELs cover spans of CR the overall impact of special abilities dwindle away. This has a built in equivalent effect of the UA buy-off, only it is more systematic and less best-guess band-aid approach. (And it may be a point where ELs are still superior to the Chi Ro power approach, I'll need to think that through)

 

[Cheiromancer]

Is the "Chi Rho power approach" a good name? I mean for the system of calculating xp and encounter difficulty based on the sum of the squares of the relevant CRs. The "Chi Rho power" of a group or encounter would be that sum, the "Chi Rho xp" would be the xp as calculated by that approach, and so on.

The "Chi Rho" refers, of course, to the fact that phonetically those two greek letters come out as CR, while lexicographcially they come out to XP. They are thus suited as the name for a method which relates the CR to XP via a very simple mathematical operation of squaring and summing.

I am thinking that if this method is ever published, or referred to by other authors, it needs to be consistently named.

Hmmm. To be used legally, does it need to be published with an OGL license? Is the equation OGLable?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Is the "Chi Rho power approach" a good name?

For a messageboard? Just to give props to you? And cause I thought it was neat you came up with it. You bet.

I am thinking that if this method is ever published, or referred to by other authors, it needs to be consistently named.

Boy, you really want to take this all the way. Heck, I'm game.

But you'll have stop using X/Y. You want chi/rho, right? To really make it stick.

The greek letter Rho looks like ρ. ρ for Party? Power? Hell yeah!

Chi, of course, is just X.

X/ρ.

Hmmm. To be used legally, does it need to be published with an OGL license? Is the equation OGLable?

The equation isn't OGLable (math in general isn't). But I think you could probably whip up something OGL-worthy, that publishers could feel confident using.

Try the following attachement on for size.

Wulf