Subtle magic instead of low magic

[NemesisPress]

To make a "balanced" game using subtle magic (regardless of whether or not the magic users have access to the flashier spells) merely means putting them in situations where those more subtle spells are extremely useful.

It's the same concept with characters in Cthulhu. You know your players can't kill much of what they run into - so you don't make killing a goal but an ancillary effect.

In other words, good thematic scenario design.

 

[333 Dave]

I like this thread!
One of the main changes I decided to impliment with the upcoming New Dawn setting (unfortunatly will take quite a bit longer than expected do to constant re-evaluation of previous work, spinning my weels in the mud, if you will) was rework magic to be less flashy. The Grimoirist core class is a replacement for the wiz and sorc, and truely, I don't think they'd be balanced with each other (but in other ways is balanced with the other changes I've made). I managed to make a way for you to cast as many spells as you want each day, and eliminate the flashy boom spells (almost required by infinite castings). But there are still a few things preventing you from just throwing around your highest level spells every round (mostly the laws of probability). It still has a few kinks to work out, but its looking good! Expect the New Dawn player's guide sometime in November (pushed back from late summer as I stated earlier).
Its full of low key goodness!

 

[mmadsen]

In D&D there have always been some flashy 'must have' spells that seem more powerful than others of their level.

Well said. Given that the entire magic system is completely made-up, it's odd how many people think the way it's done is the natural way magic should work -- when countless other equally arbitrary systems could work just as well, but with a different flavor.

You could try simply increasing the level of these spells, say +4 levels.

You may not have to ban spells or increase their level drastically (e.g. +4) to make them less effective than "cheaper" alternatives. And when people still want a spell that's been bumped up a level or two, that says something about the current level choice...

They include eg magic missile, mage armour, invisibility, improved invisibility, fly, fireball, lightning bolt, teleport...

You can bump those spells up a level or two, and you can drop other spells down a level or two.

If you want classic, subtle magic, you naturally want curses and the like. Bestow Curse is currently a 3rd- or 4th-level spell -- with a range of "touch". Giving it "close" range and dropping it to 1st level might lead to spellcasters actually using it...

Actually, Ravenloft has lots of interesting ideas on curses, including the notion of different severity-levels of curses, from Embarrassing (e.g. hair turns white), up to dangerous (e.g. -6 to an Ability score, blindness, lycanthropy), and even to lethal (tranformed into monster). Since "dangerous" is the fourth severity level, and since it matches the default Bestow Curse spell, we can easily introduce curses from 0-/1st- up to 4th-/5th-level (for Clerics/Wizards).

Ravenloft also gives bonuses and penalties for Justification, Drama, Escape Clause, etc.

 

[Tsyr]

If you want classic, subtle magic, you naturally want curses and the like. Bestow Curse is currently a 3rd- or 4th-level spell -- with a range of "touch". Giving it "close" range and dropping it to 1st level might lead to spellcasters actually using it...

If you want this type of magic (And I like it!), pick up Occult Lore. It has what they call Sympathetic Magic. It's similar to what a lot of people think of as Voodoo... you establish a "bond" to the target, through knowing him, having his possessions, making little dolls, all different sorts of ways... then you can work subtle magic on him. It's very cool.

Well, ALL of that book is cool... Sympathetic Magic just stands out

 

[Bob Aberton]

Coupla words for you all:

Witch Spell List, page something or other of the DMG.

It has NO FLASHY MAGIC AT ALL

What I did in my campaign is to change the wizard's spell list to use the Witch spell list instead, and, voila - instant low magic.

 

[mmadsen]

What I did in my campaign is to change the wizard's spell list to use the Witch spell list instead, and, voila - instant low magic.

Excellent suggestion.

If you want a campaign with just subtle magic though, even some of the Witch's low-level spells should go. After all, Cure Minor Wounds, Dancing Lights, Flare, Light, and Mending aren't powerful spells, but they are flashy. No one would doubt you were using magic.

At a glance, here are some subtle spells:

Cleric
0-level: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Guidance, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1st-level: Bane, Bless, Bless Water, Cause Fear, Command, Comprehend Languages, Curse Water, Deathwatch, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Doom, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Invisibility to Undead, Magic Weapon, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Random Action, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith

Wizard
0-level: Resistance, Detect Poison, Daze, Disrupt Undead, Arcane mark, Detect Magic, Read Magic
1st-level: Endure Elements, Hold Portal, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead, Identify, True Strike, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Sleep, Change Self, Nystul's Magial/Undetectable Aura, Ventriloquism, Cause Fear, Magic Weapon, Message

Even then, some of those spells aren't too subtle (e.g. Sleep, Change Self). Also, since the game relies on certain not-so-subtle healing spells, you may want to create some subtle alternatives. Aid offers 1d8 temporary hit points (and +1 attack, +1 on saves); it can more or less replace Cure Light Wounds or Cure Moderate Wounds.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You know, I like a lot of these ideas. I might like to incorporate some of 'em--not into most of my campaigns, where blatant magic is okay, but into a few of 'em.

But my concern--as others have brought up--is with balance. The vast majority of a mage's offensive spells are the blatant ones. If you take those away, you've drastically depowered the arcane casters. How do you deal with that?

Well, one option would be to do the same to magic items. If the fighers and barbarians are fighting with the same equipment at 13th level they were at 3rd, it's less important that the mages haven't gone up dramatically in damage-dealing ability either. Still, you need to retain some offensive spells, since even without magic items, fighters still get more attacks and better attack rolls.

Obviously, you'll have to strip away most of the clerics' offensive spells as well.

And to do all that, you've got to drastically tone down the monsters. With no blow-em-up spells and no +4 bastard swords, forget about taking on an old dragon. Heck, even a troll is almost completely out of the question.

Basically, this could still work, but it would have to be a setting with very few or no monsters, using only human (or at least PC race) adversaries. Kind of like the Grim-n-Gritty system, really.

This doesn't mean the idea isn't worthwhile, just that it involves a lot of work, or at least it seems to me as though it would.

However...

So far everyone seems to be associated "subtle" with "weaker." That's not necessary.

Don't want big explosive fireballs? Okay, replace it with a third level spell that causes a handful of people to start feeling weak and ill. They take a small amount of damage the first round, a bit more the second, and so on, until they've taken the same amount of damage the fireball would have dealt. It takes longer, but there's no visible effect, so they don't know why they're taking damage, or who caused it. And it's subtle; you could describe it as a form of curse.

I think most of the "flashy" spells could be changed like this, rather than dropped. What you wind up with is a wizard who is no weaker in combat than he used to be, but draws substantially less attention and is far less obvious when throwing magic about. And you have a world in which magic can remain mysterious, because it lacks any visible manifestation.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

There are some truly wonderful spells that kill people without the need for flashy pyrotechnics. If you get rid of healing magic, and you're flexible about you reassign spell levels, you can create a great feel.

Phantasmal Killer is my personal favourite, this spell has CLASS. But there are others that can be used with a little imagination.

Nightmare is a nice one - especially if you lower the spell level. The same target, night after night after night. Anyone without access to healing magic is done for: either you'll eventually kill them or drive them crazy from sleep deprivation.

If you get rid of the big 3: Conjuration, Evocation & Transmutation, Necromancy rises to the fore as the primary means of killing people with magic (Necromancy? Fancy that...). Lots of Necromantic spells are subtle. I like Necromancy.

In passing, Demand is another gem of a spell, although why it is 8th level is completely beyond me. Ever know a character to use Demand? No, didn't think so. Now, if it were 4th level...

 

[Someone]

Really, you don´t need to get rid of the flashy spells, but give them a rationale explanation. How? simple, change the material components. What if the M component for fireball is a highly flammable alchemical mixture? Melf´s acid arrow is an easy one; anothe mixture of corrsive chemical components. Most of the "magic" can be converted to alchemy, hipnotism, etc, pretty easily with only a few changes; of course, there´s still some tough ones that are difficult to convert, like teleportation, but this way you will need to ban only a few spells and still have the magic perceived as mundane.

 

[Ace]

Part of my desire for more subtle magic is so I can have a Ren -Faire type setting

I want a world that is recognizably historical, like Harn but with more Fae and more room for adventure

The problem I have with the flashy spells is the effect they have on the world.

I ran a game, ostensibly low magic, set on Pseudo Earth a while back and had my standard military tactics ruined by area spells

I was stunned by how different the AH64 Sorcerer with fly, lightning bolt and protection from arrows can dominate a battle field

I decided that the next time I played I wanted a world in which magic doesn't change it beyond recognition.

By limiting Transmutation, Evocation and Cojuration I can give the word a uniquely "real" feel without taking away the good bits of D&D

I figure my campaigns will end up looking like this

My Standard game--- High Magic D&D with all the options

My Medium Game-- D&D with modified Sovereign Stone rules

My Low Magic game-- D&D with subtle magic from COC, Occult Lore, and my mods

Right now I don't want to mess with the Sov Stone stuff and the High Magic is done so that leaves me with the Low Magic game


I figure I will have great guides --- Call of Cuthulu D20, Occult Lore, Swashbuckling D20, Twin Crowns and more.

Thrown in a dabble of Ravenloft and yummy