Subtle magic instead of low magic

[LostSoul]

A couple of thoughts:

If you want to get rid of magical healing, let the PCs heal 1 hp per level per hour.

Goodberry is a subtle (but weak) healing spell.

If you want to balance the classes while changing the magic system, you might want to get rid of the spellcasting classes (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and, to a lesser degree, druid), replacing spellcasting with a skill and feat system available to all characters.

 

[SableWyvern]

Hong "IKYWIM ect, ect" Ooi

Oh no!

Hong into Yoda is turning.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Want some stubtle magic without underpowering the magic-using classes?

There's a few ways, most of them already in the rules...

1) Use the Bard class. Their spell list never gets extremely powerful or flashy...they make up for it in other ways. Get rid of the nancy-pants song and dance flavor, and replace it with the learned old men of yore; perhaps instead of ranks in Perform you need ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to create the effects, and you don't need to sing or anything...just chant words of power. If you want to give them a bit more, take away all the "bardic music" abilities and make their magic "divine." bada-bing, you've got armored spellcasters.

2) Take a look at the Psion. This woud probably be a bit easier to make into a low-magic alternative than the wizard. Maybe make the Witch's spell list psionic powers, and keep the psoinic advancement. Also allows them to damage you physically with mind tricks...maybe dismiss the nonpsion damage barrier thingy that stops psionic attacks and defenses from actually *doing* anything.

There's some brainstorms for ya. The Bard, especially, is rapable.

 

[mmadsen]

But my concern--as others have brought up--is with balance. The vast majority of a mage's offensive spells are the blatant ones. If you take those away, you've drastically depowered the arcane casters. How do you deal with that?

First, if you take away the flash-bang spells (or make them less accessible by raising their levels), you can make the more subtle spells more accessible by lowering their levels.

Second, you can get rid of the notion of arcane casters. That way arcane casters aren't weaker than divine casters. Use either the Cleric or the Sorcerer for all casters, divine or arcane -- or use some mix: no penalties for armor, but Wizard's weak BAB.

Third, as you point out, you can remove the high-power magic weapons that strengthen the non-spellcasters. Now everybody's equal again at higher levels.

Fourth, if spellcasters are still too weak, we can give them other benefits. Skill points seem natural, since the classic wizard is supposed to be a scholar above all else.

 

[Desdichado]

It's not that hard to still use monsters. After all, before we all got spoiled by CRs, we had to look at the details of the monster and stack it up mentally against the party to see how they worked. All you have to do is the same thing that old time gamers have been doing for years.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Want some stubtle magic without underpowering the magic-using classes?

There's a few ways, most of them already in the rules...

1) Use the Bard class. Their spell list never gets extremely powerful or flashy...they make up for it in other ways. Get rid of the nancy-pants song and dance flavor, and replace it with the learned old men of yore; perhaps instead of ranks in Perform you need ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to create the effects, and you don't need to sing or anything...just chant words of power. If you want to give them a bit more, take away all the "bardic music" abilities and make their magic "divine." bada-bing, you've got armored spellcasters.

That could be a pretty cool idea...

Anyway, I've always had a kind of idea that subtle spells = a powerful spellcaster. The less experienced wizards simply do not have the control to produce efficient magical spells... Their spells thereby "leak" spellpower in the form of light and noise and other effects, creating less powerful spells.

For example, a novice spellcaster casting Teleportation will leave with a bang and a flash and a puff of sulpherous smoke, but he can't travel very far, because he wastes too much magic on light, noise and smoke. A veteran magician, however, will Teleport much farther, only creating a blurry quiver in the air and a small "pop" as he disappears. Meanwhile, a Teleporting Master Wizard will simply vanish without a trace the next time you blink.

 

[Bob Aberton]

No offense, but you really don't need to cobble together too much to make subtle magic work. Here's what I did in my campaign:

All spellcasters have a "Charm." This generally a wand or staff but it can be a gemstone or even an ember, or something even wackier. You channel XP into this charm, and then casting spells drains XP from said charm. So a cantrip takes 1 XP, 1st level is 2 XP, 2nd level is 3 XP, and so on an so forth. They can cast as many times per day as there is still XP ("Magical Energy," "Ki," or whatever you call it...)

Demand a Spellcraft check to cast - DC10 for cantrip, DC11 for 1st level, DC12 for 2nd, DC13 for 3rd, DC21 for 4th, DC22 for 5th, DC23 for 6th, DC 31 for 7th, DC32 for 8th, and DC33 for 9th.

And, last of all, use the Witch Spell List. I'm telling you all, its all you need for subtle magic...

 

[fuindordm]

A couple of thoughts:

1) Since in D&D hit point damage doesn't represent gross bodily injury, the standard cure spells aren't "flashy". Think of them as just getting a boost of energy, washing away fatigue. If you use Grim n' Gritty, WP/VP, or some other means of modeling severe injuries, just don't allow the cure spells to heal such wounds--they have to heal naturally.

2) I don't think it's really necessary to unify all the magic into one class/spell list. Divine and arcane "magic" historically do have very different flavors. If you pillage the spell lists of flashy spells, however, you will probably want to rethink the classification of the remaining spells, or modify the specialization rules to reflect the new in-game value of spells. For example, you could have the following schools:

Low Magic (catch-all for universal utility spells)
Curses/Blessings (including things like Magic Weapon, Bless, Bestow Curse, Divine Favor, etc.)
Mentalism (enchantment and phantasm)
Necromancy
Demonology (for kept fiendish summoning spells)
Theurgy (for kept celestial summoning spells)
Elementalism
Herbalism (healing magic could go here)
Divination

3) Clerical domains are very "flashy". Clerics could be balanced against arcane casters by removing their domain spells, but keeping (and possible boosting) their domain powers. Non-flashy domain spells could simply be added to the character's normal spell list. So clerics lose one spell per level, wizards lose a lot of their raw damage potential.

--Ben

 

[Tsyr]

3) Clerical domains are very "flashy". Clerics could be balanced against arcane casters by removing their domain spells, but keeping (and possible boosting) their domain powers. Non-flashy domain spells could simply be added to the character's normal spell list. So clerics lose one spell per level, wizards lose a lot of their raw damage potential.

That doesn't sound like a very fair trade to me...

 

[Irda Ranger]

No offense, but you really don't need to cobble together too much to make subtle magic work. Here's what I did in my campaign:

All spellcasters have a "Charm." This generally a wand or staff but it can be a gemstone or even an ember, or something even wackier. You channel XP into this charm, and then casting spells drains XP from said charm. So a cantrip takes 1 XP, 1st level is 2 XP, 2nd level is 3 XP, and so on an so forth. They can cast as many times per day as there is still XP ("Magical Energy," "Ki," or whatever you call it...)

Demand a Spellcraft check to cast - DC10 for cantrip, DC11 for 1st level, DC12 for 2nd, DC13 for 3rd, DC21 for 4th, DC22 for 5th, DC23 for 6th, DC 31 for 7th, DC32 for 8th, and DC33 for 9th.

And, last of all, use the Witch Spell List. I'm telling you all, its all you need for subtle magic...

I REALLY like this concept. Its a great way to model casting as many spells as you like, but at a cost.

Do you still have spellbooks? How do you prepare spells? What happens if you lose the charm? Do familiars play an enhanced role?

I would want Knowledge (Arcana) to play a role somewhere.... maybe for researching or learning new spells. I think that old wizards should be steeped in occult lore.

I think that for making magic "cost" is that way it would be fair to increase the Wizard's skill list and skill points to 4/day. How does that sound to others?

Irda Ranger