subtle magic systems?

[Afrodyte]

As I'm creating the setting for my campaign, I've come against a problem when it comes to (surprise, surprise) magic. By and large the magic in the setting is subtle magic. By subtle magic, I mean magic that more or less replicates naturally occuring things. Most of the time a casual onlooker witnessing a spell's effect, provided they didn't witness the actual casting of the spell, would not know that a spell has been cast at all. The caster would simply be a person who is lucky, skillful, more physically adept, or more mentally astute than she first appears.

I think that subtle magic spells would grant bonuses to skills, saves, attacks, and attributes; influence a target's mind; and replicate otherwise natural or humanly possible occurences. Overt magic, though, is clearly the result of magic. Things that come out of nowhere or don't act like they would naturally (like glowing or floating in air) is a property of overt magic.

The problem, of course, is that even low-level PHB spells are generally overt. In addition, since I reorganize spells according to theme rather than school, it gets even more difficult. Granted, fire magic is not going to be subtle by a long shot, but there should be more than what's there. So, here are the specific questions:

• What is a good way to mechanically represent the difference between subtle and overt magic?
• How should the advantages and disadvantages of subtle and overt magic be represented? I've thought about giving subtle magic higher DCs for recognizing and resisting them with the requirement that they have to work alongside what people would characterize as natural. But that might not be the best way.
• What about conditions that could change an overt spell to a subtle spell, and vice versa?
• What are some guidelines I should follow for creating more subtle spells, particularly with determing what level they would be?

 

[Amalricus]

Sliane

You may want to have a glance at the d20 mongoose products, Sliane and Conan. The magic may not be utterly subtle, but the system could cetainely be formed to fit the tone you are looking for. I use them for a low magic d20 campaign, and the fit is very nice.


The setting info on Sliane is also worth a read, its nice work.

Amalric

 

[Castellan]

The setting info on Sliane is also worth a read, its nice work.

Just to avoid confusion, the setting is Slaine. Wouldn't want a search to yield no results.

 

[Afrodyte]

*nudge*

 

[drnuncheon]

Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might III - also in the Complete Book of Eldtritch Might - has the subtle spellcasting feat. Takes 10x as long to cast a spell, but it's almost undetectable.

J

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Speaking of Monte, you might look up the rules for ceremonies and runes in "Mystic Secrets".
The ceremonies that can be used without taking a feat or gaining certain class features and levels all are balanced by wealth (and there relatively low effect). This might reduce the effect of magic in a campaign.

If you want subtle magic the primary form of magic in your campaign, you will probably need to remove the standard spellcasting classes.
Instead of that, allow everybody to cast a few "subtle spells", for a price. Maybe a kind of drain (HP damage, fatigue), material cost, skill checks, and so on.

If you simply want to simply introduce subtil magic to standard spellcasters, you might introduce feats that reduce the obversable effects of spells, and maybe new spell subtypes (and spells with it) that indicate subtle effects...

 

[Verequus]

I think that subtle magic spells would grant bonuses to skills, saves, attacks, and attributes; influence a target's mind; and replicate otherwise natural or humanly possible occurences. Overt magic, though, is clearly the result of magic. Things that come out of nowhere or don't act like they would naturally (like glowing or floating in air) is a property of overt magic.

The problem, of course, is that even low-level PHB spells are generally overt. In addition, since I reorganize spells according to theme rather than school, it gets even more difficult. Granted, fire magic is not going to be subtle by a long shot, but there should be more than what's there. So, here are the specific questions:

• What is a good way to mechanically represent the difference between subtle and overt magic?
• How should the advantages and disadvantages of subtle and overt magic be represented? I've thought about giving subtle magic higher DCs for recognizing and resisting them with the requirement that they have to work alongside what people would characterize as natural. But that might not be the best way.
• What about conditions that could change an overt spell to a subtle spell, and vice versa?
• What are some guidelines I should follow for creating more subtle spells, particularly with determing what level they would be?

Maybe you should look into Elements of Magic Revised on RPGnow. Three points support this product: 1. You can create spells easily and decide, if they have some overt effect or are entirely invisible (as long it isn't a fireball). 2. The spell effects are divided into 11 lists, which replace the schools. Where damage spells can be Necromancy or Conjuration in the core rules, the high damage effects fall all into Evoke XX. 3. You can scale easily boni gained of spells. In fact, the rules are designed to allow few bonus types, but giving them higher boni than +5 on higher levels.

The most obvious "disadvantage" is, that EoMR is a spell-point system - if you like such systems, you won't find a better system on the market. Otherwise you can still use the core magic with it, because it is balanced with it.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Have you asked your players about this? I've played and DMed similar systems. People play spellcasters but complain constantly that they can't be "effective" or have any fun.

For what it's worth, in addition to the Mystic Secrets method, which is magic that anyone can do with the right equipment, you can do this with a couple methods. Take out abjuration, evocation and transmutation. Make conjuration spells take a minute to cast. You'll find some serious gaps when done of course. Might want to leave in spells like invisibility.

I've envisioned a system like this from time to time. With less of a role for spellcasters, I would probably make their spells longer. What it's likely to do though is turn casters into "Mr. Bufftastic" and "Ms. Skillboost."

 

[Von Ether]

Check out Green Ronin's Pyschics Handbook. The magic is less flashy than DnD magic and most of it is mental. The psychic locations would be good for "cursed" areas that seem natural.

 

[Aeric]

What you've described sounds a lot like Coincidental Magic in White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension. Mages in that game have to keep the results of their spells in the believable and possible ranges to avoid getting slammed by Paradox. Two totally different systems, but you might want to take a peek at some of that stuff for some ideas.