Succubus Questions

[Fhalyassa]

Why did the 3.5 succubus lose doom, clairaudience/clairvoyance, darkness, desecrate, and unholy blight. Does the 3.5 succubus have claws that now do 1d6 instead of 1D3 (SS IIRC)?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

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[Sekhmet]

Yes, their claws now deal 1d6.
As for why they lost some spell-like abilities, you'd have to take that up with the now defunct 3.5 editing team.

 

[Alzrius]

Why did the 3.5 succubus lose doom, clairaudience/clairvoyance, darkness, desecrate, and unholy blight. Does the 3.5 succubus have claws that now do 1d6 instead of 1D3 (SS IIRC)?

There was a general philosophy, in regards to monsters' spell-like abilities, that the 3.5 design team adopted when updating 3.0. The basic idea was that since monsters only have so much "screen time" before being killed, their spell-like abilities should reflect combative powers; "atmospheric" things like desecrate and doom, etc. were thought of as just cluttering up the stat block, and so were removed for that reason.

I suspect that combat ability was also why claw attack damage was increased.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There was a general philosophy, in regards to monsters' spell-like abilities, that the 3.5 design team adopted when updating 3.0. The basic idea was that since monsters only have so much "screen time" before being killed, their spell-like abilities should reflect combative powers; "atmospheric" things like desecrate and doom, etc. were thought of as just cluttering up the stat block, and so were removed for that reason.

I suspect that combat ability was also why claw attack damage was increased.

It seems to me that a succubus' claw attack is basically irrelevant. I don't see them as ever choosing to fight, they'll port away before getting in a situation where 1d3 vs 1d6 matters.

 

[Fhalyassa]

It seems to me that a succubus' claw attack is basically irrelevant. I don't see them as ever choosing to fight, they'll port away before getting in a situation where 1d3 vs 1d6 matters.

I have never thought of the succubus as being fighter even when their claws where 1d3. That got me thinking of how when the 2nd Ultroloth which had a Str 19 was converted to 3rd the Ultroloth Strength became 13. In 2nd a Str 19 meant that the Ultroloth it did an extra +7 due to its strength.

 

[frankthedm]

Design & Development: Gnoll Limits: Adventure Design, Part 2

If you’ve got a circa-2000 Monster Manual (that’s a 3.0 one), take a look at the marilith on page 46. I’m counting 22 spell-like abilities, including animate dead (in case you wanted to pair up a CR 17 marilith with a bunch of skeletons and zombies) and bestow curse (does the marilith think that its 17th-level opposition won’t make a DC 16 Will save?). More to the point, even the better spell-likes on that list take away from the fundamentally cool thing you want the marilith to be doing: slaughtering PCs with all those swords. There are a handful of good abilities on that list, but they’re like the fruits hidden among the “leaves” of all those low-level spell-likes.

Fast forward to the current incarnation of the marilith (p. 44 in your Monster Manual). It’s a much more reasonable eight spell-like abilities (previously nine, before the most recent polymorph errata). This is something we learned along the way. You probably won’t see monsters with long lists of spell-like abilities anymore. We’re pruning them back so you can find a few good ones to use during that marilith’s five-round lifespan.

 

[Alzrius]

It seems to me that a succubus' claw attack is basically irrelevant. I don't see them as ever choosing to fight, they'll port away before getting in a situation where 1d3 vs 1d6 matters.

I have never thought of the succubus as being fighter even when their claws where 1d3.

As a note, the succubus's claw attack damage wasn't upped in the 3.5 changeover for any reason that was specific to her (unlike the spell-like abilities, which were) - rather, the value of claw attack damage for a Medium-sized creature changed, and hers were increased as a result of that.

That said, the fact that some types of monsters - such as succubi - aren't meant to be melee-style monsters seems to have been lost on the 3.5 design team (as per frankthedm's quote).

That got me thinking of how when the 2nd Ultroloth which had a Str 19 was converted to 3rd the Ultroloth Strength became 13. In 2nd a Str 19 meant that the Ultroloth it did an extra +7 due to its strength.

There's no doubt that the yugoloths, particularly the stronger ones, were completely robbed in 3.0, and the official 3.5 conversion guidelines missed a chance to fix the problem. The best you can find now is the "retcons" that Paizo tried to slip in near the end of the 3.5 era.

 

[Fhalyassa]

As a note, the succubus's claw attack damage wasn't upped in the 3.5 changeover for any reason that was specific to her (unlike the spell-like abilities, which were) - rather, the value of claw attack damage for a Medium-sized creature changed, and hers were increased as a result of that.

That said, the fact that some types of monsters - such as succubi - aren't meant to be melee-style monsters seems to have been lost on the 3.5 design team (as per frankthedm's quote).



There's no doubt that the yugoloths, particularly the stronger ones, were completely robbed in 3.0, and the official 3.5 conversion guidelines missed a chance to fix the problem. The best you can find now is the "retcons" that Paizo tried to slip in near the end of the 3.5 era.

Where are "retcons" of the Yugoloth for 3.5?

 

[Alzrius]

Where are "retcons" of the Yugoloth for 3.5?

As I recall, the arcanaloths were rewritten in Dungeon #149 ("Enemies of my Enemy") to be CR 17 creatures, with a note from the author saying that those are how arcanaloths "should" be.

I'm not certain if the ultroloths got similar treatment by Paizo; I seem to recall an updated ultroloth somewhere, but it might have been a fan conversion.