Sudden Stalagmite

[ThirdWizard]

In response to Thirdwizard & lukelightning, I'd have to say that it IS an "Earth" spell, and a Druidic one at that- which changes the context. If you can show me another Druidic "Earth" spell that lets me conjure chunks of earth or stone out of things that aren't, I'm willing to relent slightly.

It's not quite the same, but summon nature's ally gains the [Earth] descriptor when it is used to summon an earth elemental. It's Conjuration (Summoning) instead of Conjuration (Creation), but the basic school of Conjuration remains the same.

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation).

It is creating earth, not altering earth. If it were Transmutation, you might be right. As it is, though, the ground isn't referenced because the druid has some kind of power over it ala stone shape, but because the thing can't be floating in the air. Ground here is used in the same way that web needs a solid anchor.

But as near as I can tell, Druidic control over things manufactured or altered by the hand of man is limited. They can heat or destroy metal things, but they can't really create them, or create things from them- especially relevant here because the floor in question was iron.

It just seems like you're confusing the issue. On one hand you say "control over things" but on the other you acknowledge it is creating things. The druid isn't actually altering the floor in any way, he isn't gaining control over something manufactured or altered by humans, he is doing nothing with anything non-natural in any way. He isn't creating a stalagtite from the ground, he's creating it from nothing. Thus, the iron floor is completely irrelevant.

It grows up from the ground.

Nope. That would be a Transmutation effect. It's Conjuration.

 

[szilard]

In response to Thirdwizard & lukelightning, I'd have to say that it IS an "Earth" spell, and a Druidic one at that- which changes the context. If you can show me another Druidic "Earth" spell that lets me conjure chunks of earth or stone out of things that aren't, I'm willing to relent slightly.

It is Conjuration (Creation) - not Transmutation: "out of things that aren't" is nonsensical in this context.

Compare this with Wall of Stone (Also Conjuration-Creation-Earth) which has specific rules stating that the stone created needs to join with normal stone. Sudden Stalagmite probably should have such a clause, but it doesn't.

There are more than a few SC spells which have insufficient rules-text.

-Stuart

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That Wall of Stone- a Druidic Earth Creation spell- requires a connection to real earth of some kind just reinforces my earliest point- the flavor text of the spell implies what should have made explicit in the rules text.

Summoning an earth elemental is not creating earth out of nothing, it is connecting to the elemental plane of earth to call forth one of its living denizens. You're still explicitly connecting to earth- here, the elemental plane of it.

In comparison, the language of this spell doesn't say it creates the spike out of nothing- it "grows from the ground." Were it actually creating the spike ex nihilo, it should read something like "...a spike of earth appears in the target hex, impaling any creature in the hex, up to 10' above it..."

So I'll restate: find a Druidic Earth Creation spell that creates earth ex nihilo- out of nothing without requiring some kind of connection to earth- and you'll start to move me from my position.

 

[frankthedm]

The spell creeped up on you Bad Paper, it happens. If the situation is a real clinch and the party needs every drop of thier resourses, I'd give the player the option to switch the spell to a different 4th level PHB druid spell.

The spell grossly violates a founding principle of the Conjuration school as well as the victim. It is a spell to not allow just to avoid the imagery of the target being sodomized by a giant stone spike.

Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

 

[ThirdWizard]

That Wall of Stone- a Druidic Earth Creation spell- requires a connection to real earth of some kind just reinforces my earliest point- the flavor text of the spell implies what should have made explicit in the rules text.

Actually, its the opposite. It reinforces the idea that there is no such restriction. If wall of stone has to explicitly call it out, then this does as well. You can't read lack of text for the ground to be natural a requirement. It's a lack of requirement.

That's like saying that because Scrying, a Divination (Scrying) spell, requires a pool of water, then all Divination (Scrying) spells that the druid can cast require a pool of water to work. It is false, and you can't use that reasoning to hold other spells to that requierment.

In comparison, the language of this spell doesn't say it creates the spike out of nothing-

Actually it does. The "growing" is a visual cue, so that it can literally push a creature. Otherwise, it would be unable to affect the creature. Why does it say it literaly springs out of nothing? Because it's Conjuration (Creation). If you want to go into a debate on what Conjuration (Creation) means, then by all means, but unless you're willing to debate that (Creation) doesn't actually mean Creation, then you're not going to get very far with that argument.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There are several Divination spells that druids can cast that explicitly use foci other than pools, but I have yet to find a Druid's Conjuration Creation Earth spell that doesn't connect in some way to earth. Even Wall of Stone differs from the other Wall spells that Druids can cast in that it MUST be anchored. WoIce can be formed as an unanchored hemisphere, WoIron need not be anchored, even if created vertically, and WoThorns also has no anchoring reqirement.

Like I said- I take a "wholeistic" approach, and the flavor text of the spell implies to me that the spike requires actual ground to work, which is what I was talking about in my first post. The rules text is silent- the only clarification we have is the flavor text.

Or, in short, I'm simply not buying your argument, 3Wiz...

 

[ThirdWizard]

Well, I'm not buying yours that ground means "natural surface" because other Conjuration [Earth] spells must have a natural surface to work. Yours is based on circumstantial evidence. Mine is based on the wording of the spell and the precedent of the use of the word "ground" in the RAW.

To each his own, I suppose.

 

[Bagpuss]

Is the "ground" text in the new ubiquitious flavor text that spells have now? If so, I would ignore it for rules purposes. Secondly, it mentions stone shape because the stalagmite is made of stone, not because it has the same restrictions as stone shape. So, as far as I can tell, the spell should have worked.

It's in the flavour text but also in the main text.

The stalagmite grows from the ground under the target creature and shoots upward.

It states ground not floor, if it ment floor it would have said floor.

also from the main text..

If it encounters a ceiling before it reaches full size, it stops growing.

So if your target is one floor above ground level in a building he can't be harmed by this spell you just create a nice pillar in the room below.

I agree the ground doesn't need to be a natural surface, but it does need to be the surface closest to the soil or earth. So it would work in the ground floor of a building (assuming no basement), and come up through the wooden floor boards (or even iron ones for that matter), but it wouldn't work on the floor above.

 

[Felix]

It states ground not floor, if it ment floor it would have said floor.

See also: lukelightning, post #18.

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By the by, it's highly improbable that I agree with both ThirdWizard and lukelightning in the same thread, so the spell must work.

 

[ThirdWizard]

It's in the flavour text but also in the main text.

Do you consider all references to "ground" in the RAW as pertaining to natural earthen ground? Or just this particular instance?