Sudden Stalagmite

[Bagpuss]

Do you consider all references to "ground" in the RAW as pertaining to natural earthen ground? Or just this particular instance?

Having just searched the SRD for reference to spells using the word ground, I would have to say in some instantance I consider ground to mean

a) a natural earthen surface.
b) the floor.
c) the action of grinding.
d) S**t that's a badly worded spell!

But then that's what a DM is for to interpret the rules. If in v4.0 they want to make clear when they mean ground to mean the natural surface, or floor, or whatever, then they can do that. Until then I'm happy for the DM to interpret the rules based on the information he has available, including flavour text.

Personally I think he made a good call here based on the discription of the spell.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm astonished that there are some people here who are genuinely argueing that it should have worked. I can see no common sense validity in allowing it to work. I'd have ruled the same way as you in a shot and all my players would have agreed with me.

Rules-lawyering on the precise inflection of this bit of text or that bit of text rarely adds to the fun and internal logic of the game in my experience.

Cheers

 

[lukelightning]

I'm astonished that there are some people here who are genuinely argueing that it should have worked.

I am likewise astonished that people don't understand that this spell conjures and creates the stone and does not require natural earth beneath it, otherwise the spell would have said so. I am further astonished that people have suddenly decided that the word "ground" now means earthen ground, as opposed to "solid surface you are standing on" which is exactly how the word is used everywhere else in D&D unless otherwise specified.

You can summon an earth elemental without an earthen ground. You can cast wall of stone on the second floor of a building (even without a stone floor, as long as the walls are stone).

Again, that being said, I think it's a dumb spell.

 

[darthkilmor]

I am likewise astonished that people don't understand that this spell conjures and creates

I didnt notice that before I would now agree that it should work on any solid floor/ground-like surface.

Incidentally, what would the weight of such a cone be...hmmm

 

[Bagpuss]

Again, that being said, I think it's a dumb spell.

Agreed it should be Transmutation and require a natural surface. Being conjuration, I'm starting to come round to the appears out of nowhere, as opposed to the "grows up from the ground" of the discription; so it shouldn't matter about the surface it is on.

But as darthkilmor has pointed out cast it upstairs and it could break floorboards. It would also be easier to push over if it just rests on a surface rather than being part of it.

 

[Crothian]

It states ground not floor, if it ment floor it would have said floor.

I find this interesting as D&D is not the most clearly written game. If they meant floor I can see them typing ground, the type of errors we see time and time again give me no faith that what they type is what they mean all the time.

 

[Bagpuss]

Reading the use of "ground" in the SRD has pointed out to me how badly worded spells are. Take Tiny Hut. It creates a unmoving sphere of force 20 ft in radius centred on the caster. No where does it say the caster must be on the ground when he casts the spell, so they could be 60ft in the air flying, and yet half the sphere must be below the ground..... but its centred on the caster who 60ft above the ground...

Do we assume the caster must be on the ground to cast this spell, or do we assume that it just means half the sphere is below the caster and half above (and why say that when that's what centred on the caster means anyway?).

 

[lukelightning]

Be careful about taking the fluff concepts of "druidic magic" as a lens to interpret spells; unfortunately the rules about what spells are suitable to what class are insufficient, aside from the sacred cow of "don't let wizard-type casters heal!"

For example, you can't say this spell should require natural earth just because, you know, druids are nature freaks, as nothiing in the druid class says they can only cast spells in nature or connected to natural materials with the sole exception of wearing metal armor. And just because some druid spells require a natural surface doesn't mean they all do, any more than saying just because some wizard spells require a material component, therefore they all do.

This problem is compounded by things such as the Spell Compendium; there are waaay too many spells out there written by many different people with different philosophies. What might seem like a perfectly reasonable spell to one person is not acceptable to others.

The rules have a glaring problem regarding divine magic: With each new book, all of a sudden the clerics and druids get a huge bunch of spells to chose from, while wizards have to buy or research them, and sorcerers chose as "spells known", which at least allows the DM to look over the spell and ok it ahead of time.

 

[Bad Paper]

twenty-three hours inside the head of ENWorld

For one thing, I reject any argument that the stalagmite should grow from the ground one floor below. Aside from the fact that the floors are more than 10' apart (the party hasn't been down there yet, and at least one of them is reading this thread, so I will not reveal the conditions downstairs), there is no line of effect to the ground down there.

At this point I have to come up with a compromise. I try to be very consistent and rules-based, so my players know exactly what to expect. I am never happy just saying "no," because the game exists for the players' sake, and I don't want to chase them away. Also, I am married to the player of the druid in question.

Technically, I was wrong. Precedent (previous usage of the word "ground") indicates that my ruling was based entirely on flavor. Here is my compromise:

When cast on a surface that is not natural stone or earth or whatever the DM believes is "ground," the pinning-in-place aspect of the spell does not work; the stalagmite simply falls over. Maybe that Escape Artist check will knock it over as a free action; otherwise it's a move action...? What do you think of that mechanic? Maybe it's too complex, and I should just say "no pinning." Does the spell then create Difficult Terrain in that space?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You can summon an earth elemental without an earthen ground.

But OTOH, you must contact the elemental plane of earth, which is just as good.

I am likewise astonished that people don't understand that this spell conjures and creates

We understand- we just disagree on the precise meaning thereof in the context of the spell, much like no one is disputing that the spike emerges from the ground, but have different interpretations of what the designers meant by "ground" in the same context.

Also, I am married to the player of the druid in question.

Then you're just wrong!