D&D 3E/3.5 Suddenly, Magipunk (3.5)

[WhatThePhysics]

I've been into D&D for a few months now, and have gobbled up almost a hundred sourcebooks' worth of information. As futile as it may seem, this was all in an attempt to know enough about the game to make a "typical" campaign setting as rationalized as possible. NPC level caps, removing high-CR creatures, you name it. Then, out of the blue, this:

Create Water + Matter Agitation + Some Metal + 2 Rounds = 2.5 megajoules of steam power, for less than 2000 GP. My god, what have I done?

I've got mixed feelings about this revelation, especially after recognizing other magic items being exploited. Free energy Create Water watermills? Cure X Wounds devices preventing most commoners' deaths? Weightless Mage Armor for soldiers and law enforcement? Charm Person for all the (il)legal mind-raping you can think of? And so on and so forth. A part of me wants to ban non-mundane item creation feats, another wants to lower the NPC level cap to 2nd, and another wants to see where all of this trickery would lead to. Without limits, there's no way these exploits could be prevented from altering a setting drastically.

Before you mention Eberron, keep in mind that this isn't about adding new concepts to a campaign setting, such as Warforged or Elemental Binding. Nor would I agree that it's the Tippyverse, since it's too low-level and doesn't rely on traps. This is simply taking the lowest-level spells from the SRD, and exploiting them via magic items to create a magipunk setting for cheap.

To those in favor of this, have you ever played/made/thought of a setting with these assumptions?

To those against this, what would be the best way to prevent/delay something like this from occurring?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Lots of this stuff has been discussed in other threads here. Eventually, someone mentions this: just because something is possible, doesn't mean that someone has thought to do it. It's one of the central themes of the classic science education shows, Connections.

How long did it take for the steam engine to get made? The concept of using steam to power devices is thousands of years old, but the first practical steam engines only showed up in the past 300 years or so. Until then, it was just a toy.

So, yeah, magi-tech has the potential to accelerate society, but until certain structures are in place- the specific laws, political movements, ethical theories, etc., that shape the way we think- certain connections are less likely to be made. One of the reasons for the acceleration of the pace of change is the simultaneous increase in our ability to communicate rapidly over long distances coupled with the legal and ethical structures that protect the abilities of innovators to profit from their efforts. If the law says you have rights in your ideas, you may be more inclined to share those ideas with others who may share theirs with you. Different eyes on a problem may see different- possibly better- solutions.*

This means that the reason you don't have magi-tech in every setting is simply that, for any given problem, no one has seen that particular solution. Or shared it. Why would the Artificer who came up with an infinite steam engine (easily done in D&D) give up his advantage?













* when I was just starting out as an attorney, I was clerking with an experienced attorney who asked me about a particular case. I commented on an aspect of it, and despite his years of expertise, he said he never would have thought of what I had. My fresh eyes gave him a new point of leverage.

 

[WhatThePhysics]

How long did it take for the steam engine to get made? The concept of using steam to power devices is thousands of years old, but the first practical steam engines only showed up in the past 300 years or so. Until then, it was just a toy.

That's correct. But, the circumstances leading to certain discoveries have profound effects on how they are utilized. Imagine if the first person to combined the elements above create an impromptu, steam-powered shrapnel grenade? Now imagine if they lived to 1) tell the tale, and/or 2) make more items like it? Very effective weapons technology has a habit of sticking around once its been discovered, no?

So, yeah, magi-tech has the potential to accelerate society, but until certain structures are in place- the specific laws, political movements, ethical theories, etc., that shape the way we think- certain connections are less likely to be made. One of the reasons for the acceleration of the pace of change is the simultaneous increase in our ability to communicate rapidly over long distances coupled with the legal and ethical structures that protect the abilities of innovators to profit from their efforts. If the law says you have rights in your ideas, you may be more inclined to share those ideas with others who may share theirs with you. Different eyes on a problem may see different- possibly better- solutions.*

Unfortunately, low-level spells/powers have a habit of creating conditions favorable towards innovation. The on-demand horse accelerates the transfer of goods and people simply by being more efficient than a real mount. Not to mention, translators could allow ideas from vastly different places to come together and be put to use; the crossroads of the real world were where most pre-industrial technological innovations got started, after all.

This means that the reason you don't have magi-tech in every setting is simply that, for any given problem, no one has seen that particular solution. Or shared it. Why would the Artificer who came up with an infinite steam engine (easily done in D&D) give up his advantage?

This does make sense. However, there's nothing I've read in the SRD that states magical items being immune to the passage of time. Sooner or later, those devices will break down, and someone will need to fix or rebuild them. Being the one of the only people who knows how to make magic items would ensure that the advantage remains your own. Unless another Artificer comes into town, of course, and they happen to know the same spells/powers as you do. Given a low-level NPC cap, however, wouldn't that make such events unlikely?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Unfortunately, low-level spells/powers have a habit of creating conditions favorable towards innovation. The on-demand horse accelerates the transfer of goods and people simply by being more efficient than a real mount. Not to mention, translators could allow ideas from vastly different places to come together and be put to use; the crossroads of the real world were where most pre-industrial technological innovations got started, after all.

True, but the casters have to want to do these things, and it is probably the rarest of these rare beings who wants to be a magical merchant as opposed to accumulating and consolidating his personal power.

Or to put it differently, casters rule the secrets of reality- why would they work for someone else?

However, there's nothing I've read in the SRD that states magical items being immune to the passage of time.

Many magic devices in D&D do not deteriorate over time absent special conditions. It's not explicit, more implied by the rules about item saving throws and stuff like that.

SRD
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.

But you probably won't find rules for how much damage items take over time through simple wear & tear...because there aren't any.

IOW, it's kind of DM's call.

 

[Dandu]

Unseen Servant. Magical workforce ho!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

A few recent discussions along your theme:

Magical Manufacturing. See post #12 for how to provide for a community's needs indefinitely.

Methods for Immortality.

Heck, the Glowing Orb spell can produce the lightbulb. With a built in dimmer switch. That you control With Your Mind. At Range. Torches are now irrelevant, as is stopping your day simply because the sun has gone down. However, they can only be controlled my the Magical Elite.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

True, but the casters have to want to do these things, and it is probably the rarest of these rare beings who wants to be a magical merchant as opposed to accumulating and consolidating his personal power.

Or to put it differently, casters rule the secrets of reality- why would they work for someone else?

To make fistfuls of cash. Also, to reign in your power through economics rather than politics or war.

I think this is why the Artificer class was created.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To make fistfuls of cash. Also, to reign in your power through economics rather than politics or war.

That's more of a modern thought process. If your society is quasi-Medieval, money can buy you many things, but it can't get you political power, at least not directly. Yes, you might be able to find a cash-strapped Baron who needs gold to maintain his castle, land & men, but unless and until you have some men & land of your own, you're still under someone's thumb.

This is why the Mage raising an army to defeat kingdoms is such a common fantasy trope: those casters are trying to usurp the power of others. They're trying to get the kind of power that world leaders respect.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

That's more of a modern thought process. If your society is quasi-Medieval, money can buy you many things, but it can't get you political power, at least not directly.

I don't consider myself to be very knowledgeable in history and wouldn't argue with someone who was, but are you telling me there have not been wealthy merchants throughout history in most eras that have enjoyed luxury, comfort and influence over peasants and kings?
The child of such a wealthy individual could be sent away to a Wizardly school, and having been raised with such a mentality, realize how profitable magic could be.

Unfortunately, D&D is a medieval fantasy game yes, but played by modern people, It's hard not to carry our own bias into the game world.

Also, Wizards don't think like the "normal" people. Surely some Wizard would eventually think, "Hm... how might I gain power without needing to stick my neck out in constant warfare? I'm kinda into the idea of wielding power in luxury." Maybe the reason we don't hear about those Wizards as much is because they've learned to be quiet and subtle.

Yes, you might be able to find a cash-strapped Baron who needs gold to maintain his castle, land & men, but unless and until you have some men & land of your own, you're still under someone's thumb.

In history, this is true. Men and Land = Power/influence. In D&D however, you have Magic. The Baron would be hard pressed to keep someone who can Teleport, Summon, and make things explode under his thumb.

 

[Greenfield]

Ancient Greece was on the verge of an "industrial revolution" with the creation of a functioning steam engine around the time of Alexander the Great. Didn't quite take off.

The Egyptians also had a steam engine of sorts, though it was used as a toy rather than being harnessed for work.

So you've discovered how to make a magical steam engine.

But wait, no you haven't. You've discovered how to make magical steam.

Making steam is easy. And there's more to a steam engine than just "a bit of metal". The research that made Fulton's machine work actually took some other people several years.

The research was done at the behest of the distillers in Scotland, to determine how to conserve on fuel costs for running a still.

Trying to build a steam engine with "a bit of metal" and steam power is kind of like creating an atomic bomb with "a few pounds of metal". It actually took some top minds and a huge investment to figure out how to take a few pounds of Plutonium and make it go boom.

So what are the hazards? Boiler explosions because of a casting flaw, or because someone got lazy and decided to solder that seam instead of welding it? Or because you didn't know how much pressure can build up, and you didn't make your valves to handle the flow?

Any of a hundred mistakes will ruin your project. And the building it's in. And you.

And once you have a machine that spins on its own, so what? You also need machines that can be driven by it to make it worthwhile.

The great mills of the American industrial revolution required not only steam engines, but also massive amounts of raw materials to make things out of. Huge mining operations for iron and copper, immense supplies of wool for the spinners and looms of the textile industry, an entirely new strain of cotton plant (higher yield at the price of more seeds), coupled with the invention of the Cotton Gin to clean those seeds from the fiber.

Want unlimited mechanical motion? Create a Golem and stand him by a crank. Tell him to wind it. He will, forever, without ever needing to be fed, without need for sleep or entertainment or distraction of any kind.

But creation of magic items for the masses? That takes something else. That takes, again, immense supplies of raw materials, rare items and supplies plus the life force (i.e. EXP) from item crafters.

Think about it: A Wand of Cure Light costs 750 gp to buy, which means 375 in raw materials. It isn't just gold pieces, it's money spent on rare and expensive components. If it was just gold the wand would weight seven and a half pounds (50 gp per pound).

In the real world their industrial age was and still is driven by energy. Originally it was coal and firewood. Then it was hydro-electric power and oil. Today it's wind, solar, nuclear, oil, hydro-electric and atomic power. Some areas are working on power plants that harness tidal forces. Others use geo-thermal (read "volcano power"). And we're hungry for more.

In the game world the power source is life itself. Call it the "creative energies" of the artificer, or maybe the "bad guys" harvest it from unwilling victims via dark ritual. But either way, it's a resource that's in strictly limited supply.

We are, in fact, just finishing up a story arc in our campaign that was based on someone trying to run a magic factory powered by the souls of children.

So saying that "Create Water + Agitate Matter + a bit of metal" equals a steam engine is like saying that anyone with access to sulfur, charcoal and bat droppings (great source for nitrate) automatically has gunpowder. They can make gunpowder if they have the knowledge that such a thing exists, and if they can figure out the right preparations and proportion without killing themselves, but it's far from a "gimme".