D&D 3E/3.5 Suddenly, Magipunk (3.5)

[Greenfield]

A DM might choose to rule that way.

Note that the write up in the DMG is slightly different from the SRD. The SRD leaves off the qualifier "unskilled labor", though the Sage did emphasize the phrase.

 

[Shaghayegh]

A DM might choose to rule that way.

Note that the write up in the DMG is slightly different from the SRD. The SRD leaves off the qualifier "unskilled labor", though the Sage did emphasize the phrase.

An RPG should have a mythic/fairytale quality to it, having skill improve this item just feels right. It makes sense to allow a skillful user to get better results...

 

[Greenfield]

I thought a bit about Loonook's math on the Lyre of Building.

Presume a sizable construction job, be it a church, warehouse, castle, or just about anything else involving massive amounts of labor.

First let's consider the human requirement. You need a DC 18 Perform check to make it work. A 2nd level Bard with a Charisma of 16 can get that with a Take 10. (Level +3 in skill, no bonus from the instrument, +3 from Charisma).

The user need not be a Bard, per se, just a performer with a total +8 in their skill check. Any class will do, including Commoner.

The Lyre costs 13,000 gp to purchase.

Presuming that half of your typical brick layers, stone masons and carpenters are skilled, and the other half are assistants who haul stone, lift support members and dig footings, and thus count as "unskilled", your average man-day costs 5 silver, 5 copper. (Based on the general estimate that skilled labors costs a gold a day and unskilled costs a silver.) Since the SRD version of the item doesn't include any restriction on skilled labor, and specifically mentions buildings, this is allowable.

Each half hour of play is the same as 300 man-days of labor. That means that an 8 hour day gives 4,800 man-days of labor. That comes out to 2,640 gold pieces worth of labor cost saved.

Dividing the cost of the Lyre (13,000) by the average day's cost savings (2,640), we see that the Lyre pays for itself in a shade under 5 days of use. (4.9424242)

Since it can be used only one day a week, that translates to 5 weeks. The down time isn't lost though, since it will probably take several days to haul in enough raw materials to supply 4,800 man-days worth of construction.

Let's presume that you're going to pay your "skilled labor" musician a full week's wage for each week (7 gold), even though they only work for one day. That's a whopping 35 gold, which is a bit less than the difference between 4.9424242 days and 5 days, in terms of labor costs.

So the Lyre and the lyricist are a very good investment for anyone doing any sort of large scale construction. Seriously, anyone in business would jump at the chance to make a capital investment that pays for itself in 5 weeks.

And any lyricist would jump at the chance fora job that pays a full week's wages for a single day's work. And though the possibility of a musician with a steady job and stable paycheck might fracture reality, it's one of those things reality will have to deal with.

 

[Loonook]

I thought a bit about Loonook's math on the Lyre of Building.

Presume a sizable construction job, be it a church, warehouse, castle, or just about anything else involving massive amounts of labor.

First let's consider the human requirement. You need a DC 18 Perform check to make it work. A 2nd level Bard with a Charisma of 16 can get that with a Take 10. (Level +3 in skill, no bonus from the instrument, +3 from Charisma).

The user need not be a Bard, per se, just a performer with a total +8 in their skill check. Any class will do, including Commoner.

The Lyre costs 13,000 gp to purchase.

Presuming that half of your typical brick layers, stone masons and carpenters are skilled, and the other half are assistants who haul stone, lift support members and dig footings, and thus count as "unskilled", your average man-day costs 5 silver, 5 copper. (Based on the general estimate that skilled labors costs a gold a day and unskilled costs a silver.) Since the SRD version of the item doesn't include any restriction on skilled labor, and specifically mentions buildings, this is allowable.

Each half hour of play is the same as 300 man-days of labor. That means that an 8 hour day gives 4,800 man-days of labor. That comes out to 2,640 gold pieces worth of labor cost saved.

Dividing the cost of the Lyre (13,000) by the average day's cost savings (2,640), we see that the Lyre pays for itself in a shade under 5 days of use. (4.9424242)

Since it can be used only one day a week, that translates to 5 weeks. The down time isn't lost though, since it will probably take several days to haul in enough raw materials to supply 4,800 man-days worth of construction.

Let's presume that you're going to pay your "skilled labor" musician a full week's wage for each week (7 gold), even though they only work for one day. That's a whopping 35 gold, which is a bit less than the difference between 4.9424242 days and 5 days, in terms of labor costs.

So the Lyre and the lyricist are a very good investment for anyone doing any sort of large scale construction. Seriously, anyone in business would jump at the chance to make a capital investment that pays for itself in 5 weeks.

And any lyricist would jump at the chance fora job that pays a full week's wages for a single day's work. And though the possibility of a musician with a steady job and stable paycheck might fracture reality, it's one of those things reality will have to deal with.

Your assumptions set the following:

Your minstrel is outside of the Elite Array.
Your Minstrel is able to take 10 on a check with the lyre.
Your overall costs for construction are ALL in labor.
Your 'man day' costs are incorrect
Generally all of your math is off.

For 100 laborers, if we split is as suggested (1/2 skilled, 1/2 unskilled) would make a day's work:

(50*.1GP) + (50*.3GP): 20 GP/day. So a LoB gives 120 GP/hr in labor.


The average building site per SBG has 30% of its costs in labor. To whit, the SBG lists under Lyre of Building:

The lyre of building provides you with a measure of free
labor when constructing a stronghold. If you play it
for 1 hour per week, it cuts the labor cost on your
stronghold in half, which means your stronghold’s
base price is 15% lower. If you succeed at the Perform
check and play for an additional hour, all your labor is
free, and thus your stronghold is 30% cheaper. Keep in
mind that you can use this savings to reduce the build
time instead if you like. It isn’t possible to reduce the
stronghold price by more than 30% with a lyre of building,
because much of a stronghold’s cost is in materials.​

If we take into account the building of a basic Residential Cluster (12000 GP base). That means we need to expend 4000 GP on labor alone, and the overall build time is 1 week.

If we have one week worth of labor we are looking at all labor... If we go with the above (20GP worth of labor/100 skilled men per day) there is a LOT more labor that is being performed, materials being moved, masons cutting stone, lumbermen hewing timber... There Lyre covers your building cost, but doesn't really do too much more .

The thing is that rather than breaking down costs in the format you desire, into a hard GP instance, the device's effects have been codified to actually just help a builder build, and provide a little 'oomph' to save labor costs and get things done.

But why would the minstrel not spend 8 hrs/week playing the instrument?


The record in the Guiness Book for longest continual guitar session is 114 hours... However, in the video evidence I can not find a single chord change... just thunk a thunk a thunk a thunk on a single set of notes. No 'playing' involved, just 'hold your hand here and strum here'.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvq8lO8OzMI]World Record Guinness Playing Guitar - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bwYTXyyU-Y]Dave Browne - world record guitar player at Temple Bar Dublin March 3 2012 - YouTube[/ame]

Now the longest guitar solo (i.e. actual playing of the instrument ) sems to be traced to this guy right here. It actually happened two days ago! According to the articles I have tracked down on the guy, he was allowed a five minute break every hour to 'maintain sanity'.

So every hour, he killed his poor Guitar of Building. The people of Austin will have to hang their head in shame, their awesomely trendy Tower of Power (Chords) will wait another week .

I can personally play for around two hours continually without tiring too badly... but I will also have the occasional wrong note, even when focused on not doing so. I personally am no great musician, but I have busked and can tell ya that after a few hours your mind will wander, and playing the same song repetitively for an hour can become... Tiresome.

So let us assume we have a man with the constitution of Superman and the lyre prowess of a 15th century Clapton.

The whole thing is that a competent musician playing 2 hours worth of the same song makes a pretty good showing. They can build a Residential Building alone in a month with your plan... Or assist in producing the basics along with other magical

Or you could just understand that the device is there to assist in paying for labor for a single project, or a location. The labor is constant, and thus better than a normal 100 man crew... But it isn't the end-all be-all.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Greenfield]

First, I never said that all my costs were in labor. I was just addressing the labor portion of the costs.

So, other than just saying "all your math is wrong", why not show what's wrong?

Per the Lyre write up, "The effect produced in but 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for three days."

That's three hundred man-days per half hour.

16 half hours in an eight hour day.

16 x 300 = 4,800 man days of labor per day of play. And, oddly, the rules don't actually include any exhaustion effects for playing a musical instrument.

So if two man days costs one gold for the skilled laborer and one silver for the unskilled laborer, a single man day would be 0.55 gold, on average.

0.55 x 4,800 = 2,640

That's how many gold pieces it would cost to hire 4,800 men for a day, or 1,600 for three days.

5 days/weeks of performances times 2,640 = 13,200, more than enough to buy the Lyre and pay the minstrel his 35 gold. Hell, quadruple his salary and give him a bonus and you're still ahead.

Now, show me where my math is wrong. Point to the line that's wrong, please.

Are there other costs? Sure. Wood, stone, sand and gravel, haulage, iron bolts and struts, torch sconces and chandeliers, all sorts of things. And those costs don't change, but since we aren't talking about them, who cares?

Presuming a project or series of projects large enough to actually require that kind of work force, the Lyre is a damned fine investment. One that pays for itself in about five performances.

<EDIT>I think I see where our figures go their separate ways: You're presuming that a skilled craftsman makes three silver a day, and that an unskilled assistant makes one. May I ask where you got those figures? That may be the root of the problem.</EDIT>

 

[Loonook]

First, I never said that all my costs were in labor. I was just addressing the labor portion of the costs.

So, other than just saying "all your math is wrong", why not show what's wrong?

Per the Lyre write up, "The effect produced in but 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for three days."

That's three hundred man-days per half hour.

16 half hours in an eight hour day.

16 x 300 = 4,800 man days of labor per day of play. And, oddly, the rules don't actually include any exhaustion effects for playing a musical instrument.

So if two man days costs one gold for the skilled laborer and one silver for the unskilled laborer, a single man day would be 0.55 gold, on average.

0.55 x 4,800 = 2,640

That's how many gold pieces it would cost to hire 4,800 men for a day, or 1,600 for three days.

5 days/weeks of performances times 2,640 = 13,200, more than enough to buy the Lyre and pay the minstrel his 35 gold. Hell, quadruple his salary and give him a bonus and you're still ahead.

Now, show me where my math is wrong. Point to the line that's wrong, please.

Are there other costs? Sure. Wood, stone, sand and gravel, haulage, iron bolts and struts, torch sconces and chandeliers, all sorts of things. And those costs don't change, but since we aren't talking about them, who cares?

Presuming a project or series of projects large enough to actually require that kind of work force, the Lyre is a damned fine investment. One that pays for itself in about five performances.

The math on a skilled laborer, for one. Skilled Laborers are worth 12 GP per MONTH on the top end.

Also, as I said, the effect on building of the Lyre has been established through the SBG. Your attempts at math nonwithstanding, the max output of a Lyre with ALL skilled labor for every 5 hours of play (in essence a month of work) comes to 1200 GP. So let us say one 'day' of play (8 hrs) at 48 days worth of work for 100 individuals... produces 1920 GP work/play.

And can only be performed 1/week.

So again... You can perform all the work you want if you wish to strain completely all credulity and allow an individual to play an instrument without break for 8 hours... It's your game. It has no verisimilitude, but go ahead.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Greenfield]

Oddly, when I look at Profession, it says that a professional can earn about half their ranks in gold for dedicated work.

To be called a master of a craft, you need to be able to produce master quality work on a regular basis. That means your "take 10" has to produce a 20, every time.

So I'm seeing 5 gp per work week for a professional craft master, minimum. In real life, to be judged as a master, you had to submit a sample of your work to a committee of masters. Had to be your own work, so no bonuses from "Aid Another" or any such thing. This process evolved over time so that the "master piece" you provided for judgment then would be called a "Master's Thesis" today, just as the title today would be "Master's Degree".

Were you looking at the "Spellcasting and services" table, where it lists "trained hireling" at 3 sp per day? An adventurer's "Hireling" isn't the same as a skilled craftsman. Whole different animal.

As for the rest of your complaint, we're talking about a musical instrument that can cut and move stone, shape wood, hoist beams into place and securely fashion them there, glaze windows, lay pipe, dig foundations and finish a roof, and your "straining credibility" complaint is about the person playing it and not the instrument itself?

 

[Loonook]

Were you looking at the "Spellcasting and services" table, where it lists "trained hireling" at 3 sp per day? An adventurer's "Hireling" isn't the same as a skilled craftsman. Whole different animal.

As for the rest of your complaint, we're talking about a musical instrument that can cut and move stone, shape wood, hoist beams into place and securely fashion them there, glaze windows, lay pipe, dig foundations and finish a roof, and your "straining credibility" complaint is about the person playing it and not the instrument itself?

I'm looking at the Craftsman listings for building listed in the Stronghold Builder's Guide... Which breaks down each profession by its type. I then took the highest of all listed mundane construction workers... And factored no levels in.

Nothing about 'hirelings'... All about the fact doesn't require any masterwork projects to complete the project. It requires individuals to build, and an individual to setup the prints. Everything else is ancillary.

Again, as I listed, a Mage runs 1 GP/day/level per the readings... As would your bard. The prices you're quoting are your own interpretations... I'm just using the actual numbers that exist for this purpose.

You know, the ones that actually provide the value for building, maintaining, and planning strongholds, public works, etc.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Greenfield]

You are aware that the SBG, while a wonderful thing, is a 3.0 document?

But let's run with your numbers just to see where it leads.

4,800 man-days per day is a figure we sort of agree upon.

2,400 of those will be billed at 3 silver per day, as per SBG, and 2,400 at 1 silver.

That works out to 720 go per day for the skilled people plus another 240 for the ditch-digger types, for a total of 960 per day.

Not as high as my previous numbers, but almost four times your results.

And the Lyre pays for itself in about 14 weeks (13.541666 to be exact, but who's counting), or a shade over three months. Still one hell of a bargain by any business standards.

So, how exactly did you come up with four years?

 

[Loonook]

So, how exactly did you come up with four years?

Because I follow the fact that the thing is meant to be played for an hour a week... Rather than your "Frampton Comes Alive" system?

If you want the actual intended circumstances we need to go to 1e, but I don't feel like getting into an edition discussion with someone who cannot accept economics between two variations of the same edition .

Here you go, to use one of yours: You won. You're completely wrong, but you need to hear it. . . And I am not arguing the point of an item when you believe someone can play 8 hrs straight and be good.

Congrats!

Slainte,

-Loonook.