RUMBLETiGER
Adventurer
Oh! I do! Craft Wondrous Item is my favorite. Also, scrolls. Usually it's to manufacture smallish utility items.
D&D 3E/3.5 Suddenly, Magipunk (3.5)
- Thread starter WhatThePhysics
- Start date
Samloyal23
Adventurer
As far back as the original OA book, when proficiencies were first introduced to the game, I have always like having crafty characters. I expect my fighters to be able make their own weapons and armour as needed, my rogues have to have some artistic flair with painting or calligraphy, and of course spellcasters must be able to craft magical items. If you want something made right, make it yourself...
To clarify: my PCs almost univsally had some kind of crafting ability, but it was rarely of the kind that lent itself to creating magic items. At least, not without help.
Of course you have to worry about the fact that you are heating a portion of metal to be hot to the touch/burning... For 1 minute per level max or concentration of the caster.
For this to work you need two separate casters, and both must be able to produce water and have iron. You will be able to power your device for... 2-4 minutes/day.
Meanwhile you are paying for ten laborers worth for the casters alone, and then needing to pay 10 GP per casting/day. With that kind of money I can buy 400+ laborers to do my dirty work for me... Why would I hire your machine specifically?
First... how are you figuring out that amount of Joules? Your agitation can affect an item with surface area of 2 square feet... Overall a roughly 4.8*4.8" cube on each side can be brought to scorching temperature... And you have to figure out how much energy is being produced by 1d4 damage, then translating that into Joules, then into an actual Horsepower/hrs run... And then translate that amount of money into the worth of purchasing a pack animal over a year's worth of spellcasting cost.
A merchant presented with a requirement (needs 2 casters on payroll + costs of services)... or investing that rough cost (2 1st level casters wages and spells will run 15320/year) to purchasing pack animals/wages.
405 laborer's wages... 1825 mules... or about a day's worth of work from a steam-powered weirdo.
The costs of the spellcraft you are discussing != profitable in many cases. There are uses for your abilities... Short-term bursts, trading. Personally I'd think that a 1st level caster being able to provide a nice platform to lift 100 lbs along with their own carriage up to deliver supplies to a group of workers would be much more useful. And even then it isn't THAT useful to pay a half days work for it.
But do you know what is useful on a construction site?
Prestidigitation: Great for the 'end of day' tidying up of the space. Of course 1 hr of work is going to not be worth the same as just having five apprentices cleaning up the site Heating up and flavoring food brought from home is a nice touch on the site, and you can also clean up the worker's clothing as they collect their wage for the day (and have a happy laborer going home without that whole 'bathing' thing
. Grade: C.
Feather Fall: A literal lifesaver on a job site. A commoner who fails a Climb check is completely screwed if they fall. Having a construction Apprentice of 1st level about can save lives. If you have an Int above 12 you can save 2 men from falling (though not at the same time). Or...
Silent Image: The best use of a Construction Apprentice. Draw up the plans... If he can ken the things (Knowledge [Architecture] check)... And now you have a three-dimensional depiction of the building to be worked on. The image can be marked up by the Mage for the day for specific sites, and (in theory) with names of who is working what area.. And all he has to do is sit on the site in a nice quiet spot within view of the location (440 ft minimum).
Now a 3rd level caster would be much more useful as he can carry his own carriage +300 lbs up and down a staircase (maintaining the 'ground below' rule of the spell). A full day's work with a relatively strong man can help to carry materials that would be hazardous to carry (boiling tar in a cask, for example) and save laborers dying.
So if I was doing a very, very nice project I would have apprentice casters there to Feather Fall, and 3rd levels or higher to use the Disk... And keep a Silent Image up and running to depict the system. They can be useful... But not gamebreaking.
Slainte,
-Loonook.
For this to work you need two separate casters, and both must be able to produce water and have iron. You will be able to power your device for... 2-4 minutes/day.
Meanwhile you are paying for ten laborers worth for the casters alone, and then needing to pay 10 GP per casting/day. With that kind of money I can buy 400+ laborers to do my dirty work for me... Why would I hire your machine specifically?
First... how are you figuring out that amount of Joules? Your agitation can affect an item with surface area of 2 square feet... Overall a roughly 4.8*4.8" cube on each side can be brought to scorching temperature... And you have to figure out how much energy is being produced by 1d4 damage, then translating that into Joules, then into an actual Horsepower/hrs run... And then translate that amount of money into the worth of purchasing a pack animal over a year's worth of spellcasting cost.
A merchant presented with a requirement (needs 2 casters on payroll + costs of services)... or investing that rough cost (2 1st level casters wages and spells will run 15320/year) to purchasing pack animals/wages.
405 laborer's wages... 1825 mules... or about a day's worth of work from a steam-powered weirdo.
The costs of the spellcraft you are discussing != profitable in many cases. There are uses for your abilities... Short-term bursts, trading. Personally I'd think that a 1st level caster being able to provide a nice platform to lift 100 lbs along with their own carriage up to deliver supplies to a group of workers would be much more useful. And even then it isn't THAT useful to pay a half days work for it.
But do you know what is useful on a construction site?
Prestidigitation: Great for the 'end of day' tidying up of the space. Of course 1 hr of work is going to not be worth the same as just having five apprentices cleaning up the site Heating up and flavoring food brought from home is a nice touch on the site, and you can also clean up the worker's clothing as they collect their wage for the day (and have a happy laborer going home without that whole 'bathing' thing
. Grade: C.Feather Fall: A literal lifesaver on a job site. A commoner who fails a Climb check is completely screwed if they fall. Having a construction Apprentice of 1st level about can save lives. If you have an Int above 12 you can save 2 men from falling (though not at the same time). Or...
Silent Image: The best use of a Construction Apprentice. Draw up the plans... If he can ken the things (Knowledge [Architecture] check)... And now you have a three-dimensional depiction of the building to be worked on. The image can be marked up by the Mage for the day for specific sites, and (in theory) with names of who is working what area.. And all he has to do is sit on the site in a nice quiet spot within view of the location (440 ft minimum).
Now a 3rd level caster would be much more useful as he can carry his own carriage +300 lbs up and down a staircase (maintaining the 'ground below' rule of the spell). A full day's work with a relatively strong man can help to carry materials that would be hazardous to carry (boiling tar in a cask, for example) and save laborers dying.
So if I was doing a very, very nice project I would have apprentice casters there to Feather Fall, and 3rd levels or higher to use the Disk... And keep a Silent Image up and running to depict the system. They can be useful... But not gamebreaking.
Slainte,
-Loonook.
Shaghayegh
First Post
But do you know what is useful on a construction site?
Prestidigitation: Great for the 'end of day' tidying up of the space. Of course 1 hr of work is going to not be worth the same as just having five apprentices cleaning up the site Heating up and flavoring food brought from home is a nice touch on the site, and you can also clean up the worker's clothing as they collect their wage for the day (and have a happy laborer going home without that whole 'bathing' thing
Feather Fall: A literal lifesaver on a job site. A commoner who fails a Climb check is completely screwed if they fall. Having a construction Apprentice of 1st level about can save lives. If you have an Int above 12 you can save 2 men from falling (though not at the same time). Or...
Silent Image: The best use of a Construction Apprentice. Draw up the plans... If he can ken the things (Knowledge [Architecture] check)... And now you have a three-dimensional depiction of the building to be worked on. The image can be marked up by the Mage for the day for specific sites, and (in theory) with names of who is working what area.. And all he has to do is sit on the site in a nice quiet spot within view of the location (440 ft minimum).
Now a 3rd level caster would be much more useful as he can carry his own carriage +300 lbs up and down a staircase (maintaining the 'ground below' rule of the spell). A full day's work with a relatively strong man can help to carry materials that would be hazardous to carry (boiling tar in a cask, for example) and save laborers dying.
So if I was doing a very, very nice project I would have apprentice casters there to Feather Fall, and 3rd levels or higher to use the Disk... And keep a Silent Image up and running to depict the system. They can be useful... But not gamebreaking.
Bigby's Construction Crew is an awesome spell for getting things built in a hurry. Drawmij's Tool Box is handy, too.
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/canonfire/Greyhawk_Adventures_3.5_Spells.pdf
RUMBLETiGER
Adventurer
A Single Bard with one or more Lyres of Building could replace your entire workforce, putting laborers out of work entirely.
The same way a single Druid casting Plant Growth regularly and effectively would radically alter the agricultural community.
There's a host of spells and items that would be handy in construction/demolition.
Mattock & Maul of the Titans
Decanter of Endless Water
Reduce item
Transmute rock to mud (reversible)
Cube of Force
Wall of Force
Move Earth
Disintegrate
Ring of Feather Fall
Cloak of Arachnida
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Girdle of Giant Strength
Bull's Strength (extended)
Enlarge Person (extended)
Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell
The Vigor spells
Mending
Etc.
Mattock & Maul of the Titans
Decanter of Endless Water
Reduce item
Transmute rock to mud (reversible)
Cube of Force
Wall of Force
Move Earth
Disintegrate
Ring of Feather Fall
Cloak of Arachnida
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Girdle of Giant Strength
Bull's Strength (extended)
Enlarge Person (extended)
Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell
The Vigor spells
Mending
Etc.
Greenfield
Adventurer
The Lyre of Building is awesome, if you happen to need massive amounts of unskilled labor in a short period of time.
But most real construction calls for some skill, such as stone mason or carpenter, and the Lyre specifically says that skilled labor is out.
So if you're digging a canal or construction earthwork defenses, go for it. Piling rocks to make a road? Great. Anything crude and you're in fine shape.
Anything more and you're not.
Prestidigitation can clean an area of dust and debris. At a rate of two and a half square feet per round. And where does that dust and debris go? Unless the DM rules that it's a cantrip-level Disintegrate, it probably goes onto the surrounding area. The area that you just cleared last round. Brooms are cheaper and work better.
For real construction Wall of Stone is the one you want. No quarrying blocks, no haulage or problems hoisting them into place, and because the rock fuses itself into existing stone, the effects "stack" seamlessly.
But most real construction calls for some skill, such as stone mason or carpenter, and the Lyre specifically says that skilled labor is out.
So if you're digging a canal or construction earthwork defenses, go for it. Piling rocks to make a road? Great. Anything crude and you're in fine shape.
Anything more and you're not.
Prestidigitation can clean an area of dust and debris. At a rate of two and a half square feet per round. And where does that dust and debris go? Unless the DM rules that it's a cantrip-level Disintegrate, it probably goes onto the surrounding area. The area that you just cleared last round. Brooms are cheaper and work better.
For real construction Wall of Stone is the one you want. No quarrying blocks, no haulage or problems hoisting them into place, and because the rock fuses itself into existing stone, the effects "stack" seamlessly.
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Shaghayegh
First Post
Would a character proficient in crafts and perform be able to make better use of something like a Lyre of Building? I would thinks being able to play the rights notes with more precision would allow more intricate types of work to be done...
Gonna break these down into two.
First, you need to hire a lyrist to use it... And get them to agree to spend their time using this instrument. The instrument itself is worth 1054444 (figuring 8 hour days as our base rate... Which again is a whole 'nother problem) man-hours worth of labor; its hourly output is 4800 man-hours.
A performer can burn 2 hours/week worth of work and reduce the cost of labor to free (which is about 30% of all construction costs)... It can only be played once a week though, so you're going to need to be located at a place where the Lyre can be put into play. That doesn't account for, you know, the actual labor that is inherent in construction (toting loads to the location, doing skilled work [only counts as labor, doesn't cover anything else so any carpentry for furniture and such is out]... And the labor has no Skill associated with it, so you still have to setup the location and do anything additional.
So yes, in theory you can cover all of your required work on one location per week. If that is true you have 249600 unskilled manhours/year. But it only handles building.
Your Lyre pays for itself (if you can convince someone to pay you for the full value and you're employed working on Castles every week) in 4.22 years. If you are moving through a large city, for example, and have agreements with every individual in the city, and we take into account the standard for bardic music (30' radius), you can walk about and make money playing your instrument, covering 30' per round (not assuming any boosts of speed), and have to pass your Perform checks.
Figure an 8 hour day you could cover around 27.27 miles at 30' of constant movement. Remember, however, that you do need to move, play for at least 30 minutes, then move while maintaining checks. If you are lucky enough to have a Perform check high enough to guarantee success (it is something with a very real chance of failure causing an issue so roll them bones) you would probably make more money as a Bard adventuring than you're making being a wandering Construction Worker.
On Plant Growth: All Plant Growth does is improve yield by 1/3. It doesn't stop the need to thresh, tote, weed, etc. all of your plants... In theory Plant Growth will make for some monstrous weeds. I hope your Ranger took Favored Enemy (Plants)
.Again, Plant Growth is going to run around 150 GP, and we have discussed this issue in a previous thread.
Also, on Bigby's... A spell from a specific Mage's spellbook that provides some small bonuses to Carpentry is useful but not great for the cost. Might as well invest in some more useful spells for the level
.Slainte,
-Loonook.
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