D&D 3E/3.5 Suddenly, Magipunk (3.5)

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't consider myself to be very knowledgeable in history and wouldn't argue with someone who was, but are you telling me there have not been wealthy merchants throughout history in most eras that have enjoyed luxury, comfort and influence over peasants and kings?

No, because that would CLEARLY be false!

What I'm saying is that kings and other royalty had power that "merchants" and other wealthy individuals did not have: ultimate political power, backed by an army. The power to tax to ruin, power of life & death.

While merchants could indeed have powerful private armies, in most cases, they were not as powerful as what the ruling class could bring to bear. And an army isn't going to help you if/when you get summoned to court...and the ruler decides to have you executed on the spot.

In D&D however, you have Magic. The Baron would be hard pressed to keep someone who can Teleport, Summon, and make things explode under his thumb.

In D&D, any ruler powerful enough to last more than a month had best have defenses against magic...either casters of his own as allies or hirelings (dangerous) or in the form of magic warping/dampening fields (tricky) or some such.

 

[WhatThePhysics]

Ancient Greece was on the verge of an "industrial revolution" with the creation of a functioning steam engine around the time of Alexander the Great. Didn't quite take off. *snip*

Decent points, and I agree with you that it wouldn't take off the very second it's discovered. But, it seems rather likely that it would be discovered and exploited far more quickly than in the real world. Combustion-propelled weapons preceded combustion engines, so it'd make sense that magi-steam weapons would lead to magi-steam engines. Of course, this chain of thought might not apply the same way in any given D&D setting.

Either way, the ability to miniaturize the size of the water chamber drastically lessens the risk of catastrophic failure. Add in the obvious fact that this device can essentially run indefinitely, and its creator(s) may eventually come up with purposes that extend beyond entertainment. Let's not forget that most 3rd-level casters/manifesters can use their abilities to exploit others for profit. More wealth -> higher living standard -> longer lifespan -> more time to come up with new ideas.

Of course, these are assumptions and generalizations.

Want unlimited mechanical motion? Create a Golem and stand him by a crank. Tell him to wind it. He will, forever, without ever needing to be fed, without need for sleep or entertainment or distraction of any kind.

As per SRD, the minimum caster level required to create a golem is 8th level. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be an option in this thought experiment.

In D&D, any ruler powerful enough to last more than a month had best have defenses against magic...either casters of his own as allies or hirelings (dangerous) or in the form of magic warping/dampening fields (tricky) or some such.

Wouldn't it be more likely for casters/manifesters to be the rulers, given their capabilities?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Wouldn't it be more likely for casters/manifesters to be the rulers, given their capabilities?

Yes and no.

Logically, it makes a lot of sense. However, there are lots of hurdles, like:

1) Being a ruler and being a spellcaster- at least, the stereotypical mage- require a lot of time. One way or the other, something would have to give.

2) In many legends and fantasy stories, being a ruler requires a bit more than a physical crown, just like being a spellcaster, but different in nature. Sometimes it's hereditary, sometimes it's a divine pact, sometimes it's a ritual.

3) Some people- call them rebels or adventurers- don't like the idea of being ruled by despots (even benevolent ones) who may live forever, and take steps to prevent them from ruling.

 

[Dandu]

2) In many legends and fantasy stories, being a ruler requires a bit more than a physical crown, just like being a spellcaster, but different in nature. Sometimes it's hereditary, sometimes it's a divine pact, sometimes it's a ritual.

Sometimes it's voting.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Voting IS magical!

You can change your leadership without actual bloodshed being required? INCREDIBLE!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Back to the topic of a Steam powered engine and the revolution of perpetual motion.

The Decanter of Endless Water costing 9,000gp, or 4,500gp in materials + 9 days of your life and being a Cleric or Druid of level 9, or a Wizard at level 11, can produce an endless geyser of water at 30 gallons per 6 seconds, or 5 gallons per second.

This Thread discussed the physics behind the power output (please don't post there, it was created in 2004), it should give you an idea of what could be generated with an item that's a potential gold investment for an adventurer level 5~7, or creatable for an adventurer level 9.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Another hurdle for such things: how many spellcasters in the world are also item crafters?

I've been playing D&D since '77, and I can count on one hand how many players i've seen who run crafter-casters. (As in, casters who actually invest in whatever the system requirements are for making magic items.) Most players in my experience simply don't do that.

(I've run a few in my life, but none were in D&D, except those that were translated from earlier editions of the game into 3.X.)

 

[Samloyal23]

In D&D, any ruler powerful enough to last more than a month had best have defenses against magic...either casters of his own as allies or hirelings (dangerous) or in the form of magic warping/dampening fields (tricky) or some such.

Still impressing a high level mage into service and forcing the greybeard to invent stuff is not going to be easy. A certain amount of diplomacy will be needed...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Diplomacy- the Skill of Kings! And the King of Skills!

 

[Greenfield]

WhatThePhysics, are you under the impression that the entire water supply of a steam engine resides in the boiler? That the entire mass has to be heated to boiling before a steam locomotive can move?

That would immobilize a train for hours every time they took on water.

The water tank is separate from the boiler, and is used to replenish the boiler as steam is used.

This kind of highlights what I said earlier about there being more needed for a steam engine than water, magic and "a bit of metal".

Besides, steam powered mechanisms aren't unheard of in D&D. In fact, they aren't even uncommon in some parts of the D&D world. Visit Gnometown in just about any setting and get a good look at the things they build.

Just for fun look up the Sterling Cycle steam engine. No water need be added, ever. A fast one will move at a whopping 1 RPM (I bleat you not), but with a piston that's over 6 feet in diameter the total pressure, and thus the torque, is unbelievable, and the motion can be geared up to a much higher speed and still have a lot of force.

But look around your D&D world. Do you see any significant factories, be they powered by steam, Golems, water wheels, windmills or horses?

I'll wager you don't, even though water wheels and windmills have been used for centuries to power things.

So why isn't there already an Industrial Revolution? Mass production isn't present, as a concept. The bulk resources aren't present. The market demand for bulk items doesn't exist. The transportation network needed to bring in the resources or distribute the goods isn't there.

In short, you're in Alexandrian Greece or the Egypt of Ramses time: The engine may exist, but it won't "take off" because the time and the culture aren't right for it. No demand, no support structure.