D&D 5E Suggestion: Broken?

[dave2008]

they were conversation with it. There’s no indication the link was severed.

The link doesn't need to be severed. Telepathy allows: "A creature without telepathy can receive and respond to telepathic messages but can't initiate or terminate a telepathic conversation." The spell is not responding to a telepathic message and the caster can't initiate the conversation. Now, It is debatable, but I don't consider casting a spell as part of the "conversation" with the aboleth.

Finally, to be clear I am being the satan. I don't have any issue with suggestion working on the aboleth. I am just suggesting that the OP has plenty of ammunition to disallow it if it bothers them:

1. Aboleth couldn't hear the suggestion
2. Caster couldn't see its target (required for the spell)
3. Caster couldn't use telepathy (very narrow reading of RAW) to send the suggestion to the aboleth.

 

[nevin]

I'm running a game. The party goes out on to a lake that apparently had something that was influencing people to sacrifice to it. It's an Aboleth, because Aboleth's. I wasn't expecting them to do this, so I was like "Cool, I get to play an Aboleth". Anyway, it tries talking to them telepathically, asking for its usual offerings, and they talk back, initiating conversation. It begins offering all their heart's desires. One of the characters decides to piss it off. It was a hysterical moment.

The Aboleth Attacks. That character, the one who wanted to piss it off, on his first turn, still responding telepathically to it, says "I cast Suggestion. I tell it to f*** off." It rolls a 6...

...

...

It's not immune to being Charmed. It doesn't speak common, but while the Spell has a verbal component, it just says you "Suggest" a course of action, it doesn't say the suggestion itself has to be verbal, and he was in a telepathic conversation with it. And the Aboleth is not immune to being charmed.

So...it eff's off? It just leaves? An Aboleth? A CR 10 creature just leaves due to a 2nd lvl spell because of a low roll? I'm just...I'm flabbergasted.

Anyone else had that experience?

Yep Players blow up my plans all the time. But don't let the fact that your big encounter got blown make you think suggesstion is overpowered. Remember someone can do that to them. Anything they can someone else can do. Nothing is overpowered because it can work both ways. It's only overpowered if you refuse to plan for it and allow your players to do things and never have your bad guys remember and adjusts.

next time the Aboleth shouldn't come for them personally unless it has magical protection. Honestly an Aboleth is the kind of villain they shouldn't hear from for a level or two and then it'll show up and do something like take everyone in the town or the PC's guild or some people that they'll care about to the deeps as slaves. Imagine thier horror when they come back from some adventure and all the people important to them are just gone and no one knows why. That's how Aboleths work. They play the long game. If you think of encounters as living things, it'll suck today but they didn't kill him and he knows they can do that kind of magic. He won't forget. I love it when players don't kill the villian but instead humiliate them. They just go on the list of enemies who are plotting against them.

 

[Umbran]

'F*** off' is as legit and reasonable as 'Go away' is. That's clearly what it meant and you can only argue otherwise from an obtuse position.

Mod Note:

1) Please watch your language.

2) How about you dial back the insulting by about four notches, please.

Thanks.

 

[Oofta]

The link doesn't need to be severed. Telepathy allows: "A creature without telepathy can receive and respond to telepathic messages but can't initiate or terminate a telepathic conversation." The spell is not responding to a telepathic message and the caster can't initiate the conversation. Now, It is debatable, but I don't consider casting a spell as part of the "conversation" with the aboleth.

Finally, to be clear I am being the satan. I don't have any issue with suggestion working on the aboleth. I am just suggesting that the OP has plenty of ammunition to disallow it if it bothers them:

1. Aboleth couldn't hear the suggestion
2. Caster couldn't see its target (required for the spell)
3. Caster couldn't use telepathy (very narrow reading of RAW) to send the suggestion to the aboleth.

The problem I have is that Suggestion has a verbal component. Telepathy is inherently not verbal. If you allow thinking about something to qualify as a verbal component, verbal components become kind of pointless. Suggestion is very explicit - the target needs to be able to hear and understand you.

 

[FrogReaver]

The problem I have is that Suggestion has a verbal component. Telepathy is inherently not verbal. If you allow thinking about something to qualify as a verbal component, verbal components become kind of pointless. Suggestion is very explicit - the target needs to be able to hear and understand you.

i think that’s 1 of many fair interpretations of the spell. Not the one I would make but one I wouldn’t complain about.

 

[FrogReaver]

The link doesn't need to be severed. Telepathy allows: "A creature without telepathy can receive and respond to telepathic messages but can't initiate or terminate a telepathic conversation." The spell is not responding to a telepathic message and the caster can't initiate the conversation. Now, It is debatable, but I don't consider casting a spell as part of the "conversation" with the aboleth.

Finally, to be clear I am being the satan. I don't have any issue with suggestion working on the aboleth. I am just suggesting that the OP has plenty of ammunition to disallow it if it bothers them:

1. Aboleth couldn't hear the suggestion
2. Caster couldn't see its target (required for the spell)
3. Caster couldn't use telepathy (very narrow reading of RAW) to send the suggestion to the aboleth.

the conversation wasnt initiated by the player. The aboleth initiated the conversation and it never ended the conversation.

 

[MarkB]

The problem I have is that Suggestion has a verbal component. Telepathy is inherently not verbal. If you allow thinking about something to qualify as a verbal component, verbal components become kind of pointless. Suggestion is very explicit - the target needs to be able to hear and understand you.

On the other hand, there's a Jeremy Crawford ruling that the verbal component of the spell is separate from the suggestion itself - which I personally dislike as it means that anyone other than the target knows that you just cast a spell on them, limiting its Jedi Mind Trick applications. However, in this case it means that you could speak the incantation aloud, then send the suggestion telepathically.

On the other other hand, if you are speaking a Suggestion aloud, you are also thinking those words in your head, so shouldn't the creature you're in a telepathic conversation with hear them?

 

[dave2008]

the conversation wasnt initiated by the player. The aboleth initiated the conversation and it never ended the conversation.

My point is that casting a spell isn't part of the conversation, therefore it can't be communicated telepathically.

Regardless, that is just one point of at least 3 to not allow it, if one wants. Personally, I would let it work (though I would probably require the site and hearing requirement, which don't seem to be met in this case) as I prefer the rule of cool.

 

[Oofta]

On the other hand, there's a Jeremy Crawford ruling that the verbal component of the spell is separate from the suggestion itself - which I personally dislike as it means that anyone other than the target knows that you just cast a spell on them, limiting its Jedi Mind Trick applications. However, in this case it means that you could speak the incantation aloud, then send the suggestion telepathically.

On the other other hand, if you are speaking a Suggestion aloud, you are also thinking those words in your head, so shouldn't the creature you're in a telepathic conversation with hear them?

Just giving my ruling, though this is such an edge case that I doubt it will ever come up in my game. The spell clearly states: "...magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you."

It's not clear if they could see the aboleth, the only language it speaks is deep speech. But feel free to rule differently, I don't think there has to be one true answer for every edge case.

 

[FrozenNorth]

You start talking to me at a bar.

I tell you in no uncertain terms to naughty word off.

Whats 'vague' about my suggestion to you?

Personally, I would interpret that as you no longer wish me to speak to you. I would not interpret that as requiring me to leave the bar.