D&D 5E Suggestion: Broken?

[TaranTheWanderer]

An aboleth and an illithid walk into a bar....

 

[77IM]

In all seriousness, here is my guideline for a "reasonable" suggestion:

A reasonable suggestion is one you might possibly convince the target to do without using magic, even if it's extremely unlikely. An unreasonable suggestion is one that there's no way the target would ever do without magic.

So if you can imagine a series of persuasion, intimidation, and/or deception checks that could have a chance of convincing the target -- then it's a reasonable suggestion. If there's no way the target would ever be convinced to do it without magical compulsion -- then it's an unreasonable suggestion.

Again, that's just my own guideline, not a part of the rules.

 

[Kurotowa]

In all seriousness, here is my guideline for a "reasonable" suggestion:

A reasonable suggestion is one you might possibly convince the target to do without using magic, even if it's extremely unlikely. An unreasonable suggestion is one that there's no way the target would ever do without magic.

That seems like a good guideline to me. Suggestion is not Dominate Person and should not act as a superior substitute for it. What it is, is the Jedi Mind Trick. You can manage "These aren't the adventurers you're looking for." That's something you can see someone doing with a good Deception check. You shouldn't be able to pull off "Abandon this fight over a major magical artifact, turn around, and walk into the trackless wilderness for an entire day." (Yes, I had a DM do that to me. I'm still sour.)

 

[Flamestrike]

Were the PCs talking to the aboleth at a bar?

Strange hill to die on.

 

[Stormdale]

Billy Connolly:
You see I've never found the English equivalent for f..k off. And it isn't 'go away'. Cause go away kind of dissipates doesn't it? Go awayyyyyy. Go awayyyyyy, shooooo. Shooooo. It's not conscious like F#@K OFF! It always works you know. And you never read, f@#k off he hinted.

I agree with Billy, the player was pretty clear with his suggestion.

Stormdale

 

[Shiroiken]

Suggestion is an interesting and potentially very powerful spell under the right conditions. I recently used it against the party, and luckily for them they passed every time. They were facing Yuan-ti in an area considered Forbidden by the locals. The Yuan-ti (who were considered demons by the locals) often use "flee this place, never to return" as the suggestion against powerful enemies. Against the PCs this could have been really problematic, as it would completely take out 1 PC from the combat, and they'd have to wait for the PC to return (especially if the Yuan-ti gets away, which they're designed to do).

From a PC perspective, it's a bit harder due to the language barrier, but it has the same use: eliminate one enemy temporarily. When fighting a group, this is pretty useful as it cuts down the enemy actions. When attacking a lair, this is problematic, because the wording has to prevent the target from warning everyone else.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A demand is a forceful suggestion.

Would it help if he said 'I suggest you foojooble off' instead? I mean come on.

'Foojooble off' is as legit and reasonable as 'Go away' is. That's clearly what it meant and you can only argue otherwise from an obtuse position.

Maybe we just need to agree to disagree about what suggestion in a reasonable manner in the spell description means.

Watch the language, even when quoting. Thank you.

 

[dave2008]

Well it is verbal in the ordinary sense. The question is whether you are able to hear and understand a telepathic comminication. Id say you are able to do so because 5e is written in natural language and those words are exactly what I would use to talk about telepathic communication in natural language.

The other issue is not only can the aboleth not hear the suggestion, but as noted in post #7, the PC cannot telepathically communicate with the aboleth to give the suggestion. Also, suggestion requires you can see the aboleth and it is not apparent in the OP that the PC's can even see the aboleth.

 

[FrogReaver]

The other issue is not only can the aboleth not hear the suggestion, but as noted in post #7, the PC cannot telepathically communicate with the aboleth to give the suggestion. Also, suggestion requires you can see the aboleth and it is not apparent in the OP that the PC's can even see the aboleth.

they were conversation with it. There’s no indication the link was severed.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

A reasonable suggestion is one you might possibly convince the target to do without using magic, even if it's extremely unlikely. An unreasonable suggestion is one that there's no way the target would ever do without magic.

Demanding that a creature leave, when there's a risk of harm/death to it if it doesn't (even if it's a low risk) seems like it would fit well within that category. Especially as any given aboleth has probably left to avoid trouble before a whole lot of times. You don't get to be hundreds or thousands of years old by being a macho idiot unless you're some sort of divine/infernal being who reforms when they die (or similar).

Flamestrike solved this whole thing with the language barrier though. The aboleth has essentially protected itself here, though more by luck than judgment. I suspect aboleths can hear speech on land just fine in water, given that the water/land boundary is their natural environment, and they've been doing this for hundreds of millions of years (or similar), but if they only understand Deep Speech, well, they don't understand.

I think if the aboleth was voluntarily talking to the caster via it's mind-link, you could make a case that this would work/should work, but it's more ROC than RAW.

What it is, is the Jedi Mind Trick.

I mean, that may be your personal view, but it's not one well supported by the actual rules, or precedent. It's vastly more powerful than that. There's literally an example in the spell:

"For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets."

That might be the most valuable thing that knight owns (depend on the horse), and is certainly extremely important to them. That might not be equivalent to your situation, but it's not a million miles away.

I get that you're bitter about that, and if the suggestion was phrased that way (which I'm presuming it wasn't), that was perhaps unreasonable, but the same suggestion could be phrased reasonably, i.e. "You must leave this place and abandon your quest, lest you are destroyed by my terrible power!" (which is well within the "a sentence or two" limit). Also, like, what exactly was happening there in your specific example? You say:

You shouldn't be able to pull off "Abandon this fight over a major magical artifact, turn around, and walk into the trackless wilderness for an entire day." (Yes, I had a DM do that to me. I'm still sour.)

Where the heck was the rest of the party in this? They didn't break the Concentration of the enemy or kill him? They didn't Dispel Magic on you or otherwise aid you? Suggestion is incredibly powerful one on one, or against a single enemy who gets an unlucky save, but it's not that great against a party or group.