D&D 5E Suggestion spell, AKA: the importance of session zero(ish) discussions with your DM

[Sacrosanct]

Lesson learned: sometimes it doesn't matter how long you've been playing together, whenever there is a spell that is subjective and has ambiguity in it, talk with your DM before you choose it. Not just at session zero, but beyond at higher levels whenever appropriate.

Suggestion
You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell.

The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do.

You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn't met before the spell expires, the activity isn't performed.

If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends.

OK, bolded part by me. What is reasonable? Therein lies the rub.

For example, we had just left a dungeon and were pretty beat up. Waiting outside for us were a bunch of cultists demanding we give them all of the treasure. I had one spell left, so I cast suggestion on him to tell his squad to step aside and let us pass unaccosted. The DM ruled they would have advantage, since they were fanatic cultists. He still failed.

so the DM ruled they still wouldn't follow the suggestion since failure in his mission would amount to suicide by his master, and thus, wouldn't be considered a reasonable request as described above.

My take: Well, if it had to be a reasonable request from their perspective anyway, then why have a spell for it? If it's reasonable, they'd do it anyway, right? You wouldn't even need a hard persuasion check, let alone a spell slot if it had to be reasonable from the get go.

Note: I'm not upset, or blaming the DM, or saying they weren't fair. Their game, their rules, and I"m OK with it. However, it's important to have these discussions beforehand, because as a sorcerer, I probably would have chosen a different spell to learn since spells known for sorcerers are far and few between. And I'm passing my lesson on to you

 

[Coroc]

i am on your side in this one. You chose an enchantment to resolve a potential conflict peacefully. Forcing you to give up all your items could not really have been the cultists task, but even if, it was equally reasonable to avoid death by you opposing them and making up a story about it back home, than fearing the punishment of their master.

 

[iserith]

My take is that it's inadvisable to take the bolded sentence out of context. "Reasonable" in this context (given the sentence that follows) appears to refer to the creature not stepping into immediate harm in my view. In my games, your spell would have worked just fine.

 

[Retreater]

DMs shouldn't allow rolls for things that are impossible to happen. If the DM knew this wouldn't be allowed, he shouldn't have allowed a saving throw for the cultists. This is how we get stories about people using Persuasion to make an avalanche roll up a mountainside ("Nat 20! Hehehe.")
As a DM, would I have allowed the group to just leave with the Suggestion spell if the cultists knew they were enemies? No.
However, if the party would've set it up like "we're friends of the Cult and need to leave to go speak to the master" and gave logical reasons, then yes. That's good role play and rewards avoiding fights. But just to throw around a 2nd level spell as an instant "get out of a jail free" card, no way.

 

[Fenris-77]

The spell should have worked. I think the DM might have been trying to save a plot point. A case of poorly implemented DM force.

 

[jgsugden]

I would agree that you want to understand how your DM will handle certain things when you select your class, and that you need to provide feedback to your DM before you start using the mechanics.

I also think this is a symptom of a common issue I see in games: The DM making a ruling to preserve his plan, as opposed to looking for a way for the player to tell their part of the story as they wish to tell it.

This happens when the DM is not on the player's side. The DM thinks about how the DM can challenge the PCs. The DM wants to make things tough for the PCs. The DM is the opposition and controls all the variables.

I believe the game works best when the DM is on the side of the PCs. The DM is rooting for them. The DM creates a story for the PCs, filled with challenges, but the quality of the story is the star, not how close the DM can put the PCs to death in each encounter.

It is the difference between a good RTS video game and a good movie. The DM's that oppose players are trying to give you challenges after challenges, every single one deadly or worse, to make sure the PCs struggle. The DM on the player's side weave together a story that the players explore and develop, where combats and puzzles help determine the direction of the story. The scary life threatening moments are climaxes - not routine.

Here, as a DM, I look for ways to allow the player's desired interpretation of the spell to work and add to the story. I say no to the player only if saying yes is going to ruin the game. I understand that magic and other powerful abilities are meant to negate the challenges I set up, and I adjust to players short cutting something I intended to be difficult and let the story that they moved in a different direction through something I did not not anticipate move in that direction.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The spell should have worked. I think the DM might have been trying to save a plot point. A case of poorly implemented DM force.

My impression was that it was very much a plot point. Which then why allow the roll? Perhaps to change their initial "I'm gonna kill you all now" to "give us the treasure and you can leave."? It wasn't the text of the suggestion I used, but perhaps the spell did have an effect on some level.

Either way, I suppose my point was that it's a good idea, even for tables who have been gaming a while, to have a pre discussion whenever there is an ability that may have some ambiguity to it.

 

[Fenris-77]

That's always a good idea. I dont think this a case where it was the issue though. I've had that conversation with DMs and when it sounds like that it's almost always plot point related. That's why prescripted plot without flexibility can make for an awkward game.

 

[Bolares]

Lesson learned: sometimes it doesn't matter how long you've been playing together, whenever there is a spell that is subjective and has ambiguity in it, talk with your DM before you choose it. Not just at session zero, but beyond at higher levels whenever appropriate.

Suggestion
You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell.

The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do.

You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn't met before the spell expires, the activity isn't performed.

If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends.

OK, bolded part by me. What is reasonable? Therein lies the rub.

For example, we had just left a dungeon and were pretty beat up. Waiting outside for us were a bunch of cultists demanding we give them all of the treasure. I had one spell left, so I cast suggestion on him to tell his squad to step aside and let us pass unaccosted. The DM ruled they would have advantage, since they were fanatic cultists. He still failed.

so the DM ruled they still wouldn't follow the suggestion since failure in his mission would amount to suicide by his master, and thus, wouldn't be considered a reasonable request as described above.

My take: Well, if it had to be a reasonable request from their perspective anyway, then why have a spell for it? If it's reasonable, they'd do it anyway, right? You wouldn't even need a hard persuasion check, let alone a spell slot if it had to be reasonable from the get go.

Note: I'm not upset, or blaming the DM, or saying they weren't fair. Their game, their rules, and I"m OK with it. However, it's important to have these discussions beforehand, because as a sorcerer, I probably would have chosen a different spell to learn since spells known for sorcerers are far and few between. And I'm passing my lesson on to you

to me this sounds like a DM not being happy with a players action and the dice roll... If they were going to rule that the spell fails, why make the ST with disavantage?

 

[jayoungr]

If this had happened at my table, I'd have asked you to give the guy a reason (as part of your suggestion) for why letting you pass would seem like a good idea at the moment. It could be pretty much anything, though, as long as it made some internal logical sense. "These aren't the droids you're looking for" is a good reason for the stormtroopers to let Luke and Obi-Wan pass, for example.

My take: Well, if it had to be a reasonable request from their perspective anyway, then why have a spell for it? If it's reasonable, they'd do it anyway, right?

I think a lot hinges on the definition of reasonable here.

Here's an example of a suggestion spell that was used (not by me) in a game I played in. The party wanted to get into an illicit auction being held in the back room of a shop. There was a guy on duty who was supposed to make sure no one got in who hadn't been invited. Our bard cast suggestion on him that he really badly wanted a cup of tea and should take a break to go get some--from a shop on the other side of town.

The DM in that game allowed it, but your DM might well have said it wasn't reasonable because he'd be punished for leaving his post. Getting a cup of tea when you're thirsty or have a craving for it is a reasonable thing to do, but maybe not when you're on the job. Lots of room for interpretation there.

Personally, I kind of get the feeling that suggestion stops the target from thinking about consequences two or three steps away, like the anger of the master in your case.