Suggestion Sucks

[JDowling]

"the only way you can stop me from sucking out the brains of your friends is to retrieve an artifact that's half a mile up the tunnle, you should run and get it"

sounds reasonable to me that if it was the only way to save your friends that you'd better hoof it as soon as possible!

I'd agree that you'd try to avoid AoO's from enemies though... but if the situation is that grave I doubt you'd be stopping to cut down some little monsters on the way.

You have to keep in mind that the average mind flayer has 19 INT... he's smart enough to figure out wording that is reasonable to you *even if your DM can't*.

Them's the breaks.

 

[Cheerful Coffin]

Suggestion is a good spell, it just requires thought and planning. Think about predicaments and possible outcomes, think about how the enemy would go about convincing someone to makes the worse descision they can make without directly commanding it. That's why it's called suggestion. You're bassically casting a spell so the opponent makes poor choices. Not having control over his actions. That's dominate person..

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't know that I buy this. I can see "he's smart enough to place his spells precisely on the battlemap in six seconds without a grid even though the DM can't" but I don't think "he's smart enough to figure out the wording that is reasonable to you even though the DM can't" is reasonable. At that point, you might as well say, "oh, that didn't work, well, he didn't try it then. He's smart enough to figure out the right thing to do even thoug the DM can't."

Along the same lines, I doubt any sane DM would let a wizard--or even an Arcane Trickster with max bluff--pull off the "my character is a 15th level wizard with a 25 int, he can figure out a way to make surrendering/fleeing/handing over loot/whatever else I want at the time sound reasonable even though I can't." At my table, at least, a player who tried this would be told "then, it's unfortunate that you're unable to play your character properly, but what do you want your character to do?"

The DM is the NPCs decision-maker and the players are the PCs' decision makers. It's unfortunate that we often end up playing characters smarter, wiser, or more charismatic than ourselves but we do. In that case, we have to make the best of our situation. I don't think either DMs or players have the freedom to say "it's phrased reasonably, I just can't think of how that would be right now."

You have to keep in mind that the average mind flayer has 19 INT... he's smart enough to figure out wording that is reasonable to you *even if your DM can't*.

Them's the breaks.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Despite the spell's wording, I wouldn't actually allow the caster of Suggestion to give a recommended course of action unless they can work it into the reasonable suggestion-- and then, the course of action better also be a reasonable response to the suggested idea.

Instead, Suggestion works more like the Jedi mind trick-- you convince the victim that some specific (and reasonable) fact is true, and they react accordingly. "These aren't the droids I'm looking for, and I don't need to see your identification" seems reasonable to me; "I want to abandon my friends to their fate" doesn't.

Unless, of course, the Illithid knows the party (through association or simple observation) well enough to be able to suggest something that would make the PC want to abandon his friends.

 

[Nifft]

Suggestions that I could see myself using against a Paladin:

- "Something evil is hiding! Quick, use detect evil!" (in Hell)

- "That aura of chaos and evil you detected on the pretty girl could be the result of a protection from good spell cast on her by a passing mischievious quasit. You should ask her about it politely."

- "Don't kill those you might be able to redeem."

- "Save your smite evils for bigger foes."

- "Wow, that water looks refreshing, and your armor is really hot, and it doesn't look very deep..."

-- N

 

[Brisk-sg]

- "Something evil is hiding! Quick, use detect evil!" (in Hell)

lol. Yeah, that would work.

- "That aura of chaos and evil you detected on the pretty girl could be the result of a protection from good spell cast on her by a passing mischievious quasit. You should ask her about it politely."

A good suggestion that can complicate matters.

- "Don't kill those you might be able to redeem."

This suggestion will prevent the Paladin from death blows (and likely move him to stop his allies from death blows) but not from beating the snot out of enemies.

- "Save your smite evils for bigger foes."

If you are fighting multiple foes, the Paladin would likely just stop using his smite evil on his current target, and save it for something bigger (either a larger foe, or a more powerful foe).

- "Wow, that water looks refreshing, and your armor is really hot, and it doesn't look very deep..."

Great suggestion if you are near a deep pit filled with liquid. Now... how would you rule it would work if you have a tribe of 30 evil ogres (intent on you and your parties death) between you and the water? Would the Paladin be able to Fight his way to the water, or would he lose all comman sense and simple run to it at top possible speed?

 

[Endur]

Some assembly required. err, I meant to say, some GM interpretation required.

There are several ways to interpret this spell.

If the suggestion isn't reasonable, the spell fails. i.e. the Spell can be used to persuade someone to do something they might think about doing anyways. Example: Keep on kissing the pretty girl (see Monster Manual Succubus use of suggestion). Under the theory that once you have started kissing the pretty girl, its reasonable to continue.

How do you guys adjudicate this stupid spell.

 

[Nifft]

This suggestion will prevent the Paladin from death blows (and likely move him to stop his allies from death blows) but not from beating the snot out of enemies.

Right, but it might save the foe's life, so that the foe can use his suggestion ability to later talk the Paladin into "redeeming" him.

Great suggestion if you are near a deep pit filled with liquid. Now... how would you rule it would work if you have a tribe of 30 evil ogres (intent on you and your parties death) between you and the water? Would the Paladin be able to Fight his way to the water, or would he lose all comman sense and simple run to it at top possible speed?

No way. It's only a decent suggestion if the party is not in any obvious danger. Not even a selfish Rogue would go swiming when there's obvious danger.

That's more a Succubus-hiding-in-the-rafters kind of suggestion.

-- N

 

[Brisk-sg]

No way. It's only a decent suggestion if the party is not in any obvious danger. Not even a selfish Rogue would go swiming when there's obvious danger.

That's more a Succubus-hiding-in-the-rafters kind of suggestion.

-- N

I agree. And this is where I see the real problem with suggestion. Some people see it as something you do to the exclusion of all other concerns. I see it as a course of action you are compelled to complete. But how you complete it is up to how your character normally acts.

If your character normally runs around with blinders on, only focusing on his one goal, then it makes sense.

But if your character thinks things through, then he is going to make sure he survives getting to that destination or taking that action.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Bingo. I totally agree.