Dreaddisease
First Post
What would you, as a DM, constitute a -1 or a -2 to the saving throw or a suggestion spell? Would attacking your comrades for any reason constitute an increase in your mind?
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Suggestion to do what?
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Thanee
First Post
If you ask, whether there should be a penalty to the saving throw for attacking your comrades (i.e. makes the save harder to pass), then of course not, that's hardly a very reasonable suggestion, unless the party in question already has a lot of infighting happening.
Very reasonable... for example, the victim is thirsty and you suggest drinking from that (poisoned) water you give to him. Such a suggestion would probaly constitute a -2 penalty to the save, because of the circumstances.
It also depends on the victim's personality. For example, a Paladin would probably never attack his comrades, therefore he should rather receive a bonus to the saving throw.
Bye
Thanee
Very reasonable... for example, the victim is thirsty and you suggest drinking from that (poisoned) water you give to him. Such a suggestion would probaly constitute a -2 penalty to the save, because of the circumstances.
It also depends on the victim's personality. For example, a Paladin would probably never attack his comrades, therefore he should rather receive a bonus to the saving throw.
Bye
Thanee
Dreaddisease
First Post
That seems like a very powerful spell for what its worth. 1 hour/level and you pretty much can cause the opponents death with the right wording. "The people in your town are undead zombies and are waiting for the moment to eat your brain. Kill them before they kill you". And the character is dead or subdued and in jail.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
The spell is very powerful. That's why, when I DM, it needs to be a very reasonable suggestion.
"The people in the town are undead zombies. . . ." would probably merit automatic success on the saving throw unless something actually made the people in town look dead, smell, and shuffle around like zombies.
Now, OTOH, if a fleeing party used Silent Image to create the illusion of a wall in front of them (making the room appear empty) and the group of pursuing orcs burst into the room, I'd give a -2 or a -4 penalty to the save against "there's no-one in here; you should hurry after the adventurers if you want to catch them."
Similarly, if Merry or Pippin were able to cast Suggestion, I'd give the leader of the orcs a -2 or a -4 to his save if they suggested: "He's questioning your authority, you'd better kill him so the other orcs don't forget their place" when the orcs started bickering over killing Merry and Pippin. That's the kind of thing that an orc probably would think.
A bonus to the save might be appropriate for the Storm Trooper in Episode IV. "These aren't the droids you're looking for." (They match the descriptions).
An unmodified save might be appropriate in this situation: The party kicks in the door to the villain's ritual, glaives in hand. Two of the bugbears moves forward and are struck for large amounts of damage on AoOs. The third bugbear hears "You're outnumbered and outmatched, you should run for your life."
Suggestion is a very very versatile spell. But it's not a substitute for Hold Person, Blindness, or Dominate Person as some people I've played with have tried to make it).
"The people in the town are undead zombies. . . ." would probably merit automatic success on the saving throw unless something actually made the people in town look dead, smell, and shuffle around like zombies.
Now, OTOH, if a fleeing party used Silent Image to create the illusion of a wall in front of them (making the room appear empty) and the group of pursuing orcs burst into the room, I'd give a -2 or a -4 penalty to the save against "there's no-one in here; you should hurry after the adventurers if you want to catch them."
Similarly, if Merry or Pippin were able to cast Suggestion, I'd give the leader of the orcs a -2 or a -4 to his save if they suggested: "He's questioning your authority, you'd better kill him so the other orcs don't forget their place" when the orcs started bickering over killing Merry and Pippin. That's the kind of thing that an orc probably would think.
A bonus to the save might be appropriate for the Storm Trooper in Episode IV. "These aren't the droids you're looking for." (They match the descriptions).
An unmodified save might be appropriate in this situation: The party kicks in the door to the villain's ritual, glaives in hand. Two of the bugbears moves forward and are struck for large amounts of damage on AoOs. The third bugbear hears "You're outnumbered and outmatched, you should run for your life."
Suggestion is a very very versatile spell. But it's not a substitute for Hold Person, Blindness, or Dominate Person as some people I've played with have tried to make it).
Dreaddisease said:
Dreaddisease
First Post
Well the situation that happened was that a sorceress cast Mass Suggestion on us and said that "Your party is polymorphed drow elves waiting to stab you in the back at the right moment. Kill them." I was trying to state to the DM that it wasn't very believable, though we had encountered many polymorphed creatures the party had pretty much stayed in tact and that as we were sitting there defending ourselves from an attack of Drows that it didn't make much sense.
Unfortunately it really seems like this spell works too well on offense as well as Defense. To break someone of these enchantments is nearly impossible at higher levels also. Break Enchantment and Dispel Magic have caps to what they can break.
Example: 20th level wizard casts Suggestion. The DC to break this is 31. Yet with Break Enchantment the max you can get is 35, and dispel magic won't work at all, and this is just for a 3rd level spell. I could understand if it was 1 round/level, but not 1 HOUR/level.
Anyways, rant off.
Unfortunately it really seems like this spell works too well on offense as well as Defense. To break someone of these enchantments is nearly impossible at higher levels also. Break Enchantment and Dispel Magic have caps to what they can break.
Example: 20th level wizard casts Suggestion. The DC to break this is 31. Yet with Break Enchantment the max you can get is 35, and dispel magic won't work at all, and this is just for a 3rd level spell. I could understand if it was 1 round/level, but not 1 HOUR/level.
Anyways, rant off.
Zad
First Post
In my opinion, Suggestion (and charm person and the like) are all about one thing
Spin control.
It's not what you ask/tell someone to do - it's how you spin it. The phrasing, the motivation, that's where the save modifier should come from.
With Suggestion/Charm, you have someone who is, by definition, open to input from you, and has a certain suspension of disbelief.
The party breaks into a basement under the flour mill where the bad guys are hanging out in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Axes and blood start flying as the melee ensues. The bard charms one of the bad guys.
a) The bard's player says "I tell him to attack <that guy, his former buddy>"
b) The bard says "My god they've been tained by the dark evil under the temple. Don't let them get close or they'll try to sacrifice you too!"
The result may not be precisely the same, but the second example gives the NPC a reason, and feeds off things he knows. A DM could assign a save bonus for a) but decide that b) was good.
Or what about
c) The bard says "Quick! Come here behind this toppled table. I don't want you to get hurt in this mess!"
The NPC would surely do this - it feeds on his survival instincts, and follows the line of treating the bard as a friend.
Encourage the players to spin the situation, and reward them for doing so.
To your example:
When you say "you had encountered many polymorphed creatures" does that mean in your lifetimes, or in that particular adventure?
If you had been working your way through caverns of drow who were frequently disguised/polymorphed, then it's very believable. If you just mean you'd seen polymorphing in action before, then maybe it's not.
If you had a group of drow hounding you for the past 5 levels, then it's believable. If you never saw a drow, then it's less believable.
That's what Greater Dispelling is for. For a 20th level caster you have to figure you may need something more than a 3rd level spell to counter him. Also if the caster is 20th level, we should assume the PC's are also near that. Those PC's will have a fairly easy time making their save against a 3rd level spell, and that's the counterbalance.
What about protection from evil? Prevents mental control. First level spell. There are other ways of course
Spin control.
It's not what you ask/tell someone to do - it's how you spin it. The phrasing, the motivation, that's where the save modifier should come from.
With Suggestion/Charm, you have someone who is, by definition, open to input from you, and has a certain suspension of disbelief.
The party breaks into a basement under the flour mill where the bad guys are hanging out in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Axes and blood start flying as the melee ensues. The bard charms one of the bad guys.
a) The bard's player says "I tell him to attack <that guy, his former buddy>"
b) The bard says "My god they've been tained by the dark evil under the temple. Don't let them get close or they'll try to sacrifice you too!"
The result may not be precisely the same, but the second example gives the NPC a reason, and feeds off things he knows. A DM could assign a save bonus for a) but decide that b) was good.
Or what about
c) The bard says "Quick! Come here behind this toppled table. I don't want you to get hurt in this mess!"
The NPC would surely do this - it feeds on his survival instincts, and follows the line of treating the bard as a friend.
Encourage the players to spin the situation, and reward them for doing so.
To your example:
When you say "you had encountered many polymorphed creatures" does that mean in your lifetimes, or in that particular adventure?
If you had been working your way through caverns of drow who were frequently disguised/polymorphed, then it's very believable. If you just mean you'd seen polymorphing in action before, then maybe it's not.
If you had a group of drow hounding you for the past 5 levels, then it's believable. If you never saw a drow, then it's less believable.
That's what Greater Dispelling is for. For a 20th level caster you have to figure you may need something more than a 3rd level spell to counter him. Also if the caster is 20th level, we should assume the PC's are also near that. Those PC's will have a fairly easy time making their save against a 3rd level spell, and that's the counterbalance.
What about protection from evil? Prevents mental control. First level spell. There are other ways of course
Last edited:
Dreaddisease
First Post
Another question pertaining to suggestion. Can you negotiate? If a player is suggested that your a Drow but your being attacked by drow, could you persuade them to choose the lesser of two evils if you wanted to plane shift or something? Stay here and die or come with us and maybe die.
Unfortunately our DM probably won't go for it since he believe magic is just not logical no matter what and so trying to talk sense into someone won't work.
Unfortunately our DM probably won't go for it since he believe magic is just not logical no matter what and so trying to talk sense into someone won't work.
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