D&D 4E suggestions for 4e ideas easy enough to HR now?

[Green Knight]

If 4E gets rid of stat boosting items, then I find it even more plausible that they will implement that. Besides, as has been said, in a lot of ways Saga is a preview of 4E. That seems like an obvious possibility.

 

[Khuxan]

If 4E gets rid of stat boosting items, then I find it even more plausible that they will implement that. Besides, as has been said, in a lot of ways Saga is a preview of 4E. That seems like an obvious possibility.

The two alternatives I think are more probable are:
1) +1 to one stat at each level (we know the warlord's ability scores at 10th level from a playtest report, and they were 25 or 32 point buy [can't remember which] +1 ten times.
2) Ability modifier increases by +1 every even level, without ability score changing. This ties in nicely with Saga skill bonuses, defences and damage increasing every even level (or rather, removes the need to specifically increase skill bonuses, defences and damage because this variant would do it automatically).

So, in short, I agree that ability scores will increase faster than they do in 3E, I just think they will increase in a different way to Saga.

 

[Gloombunny]

Using warblade, swordsage, and crusader whenever possible instead of classes like fighter and paladin is a must.

The recharge magic variant from Unearthed Arcana might be a good way to move spellcasting towards a per-encounter model.

 

[MojoGM]

We've recently started using SPELL LEVELS instead of having to pick spells ahead of time for the Wizard and Cleric (nobody is playing a Druid, but I'm sure we'd do that for them as well).

Also, we reduced the time needed to re-gain spells down to 2 hours, thus no more having to stop all night to let the spell casters recover.

Both seem to work well so far.

We're toying around with simplifying AOO's (discussion going on in another thread), but I'm not sure how that will shake out yet.

I like the idea of CRITICAL HITS affecting everything, has anyone tried this? Does it throw off any balance issues?

Also, Concealment needs to be simplified, but -2 penalty to hit seems too little.

I'm all for using ideas from 4E to better my 3.5 game! In fact, until I get to actually play 4E I'll be cannibalizing it for my game.

 

[evilbob]

Thanks for all the interesting ideas!

So far, here is my list of suggestions that I think would probably be easy to integrate:

- Reduce dwarves to low-light vision. This seems fair, given that they're already the strongest base race.

- Reduce necessity/reliance on alignment for most monsters/NPCs. Simple.

- Change "rage" to +2 bonus to attack/damage. You lose the HP and AC penalty, but gain a whole lot fewer calculations. (A high-level, two-handed barbarian who rages has to basically keep another sheet just for all the numbers - I've seen it in action, and it's not pretty.) This mechanic would work well if extended to all sorts of other similar situations, too: for example, bull's strength just gives +2 to attack and damage. Forget all the calculations: just add 2 and get on with it.

- Change grapple to basically one simple mechanic. I'm thinking just make all grapple stuff "grapple checks" that are basically just part of other actions (with the option of using Escape Artist instead of grapple) and leave it at that. Wanna grapple? Grapple check. Wanna do something while grappled? Grapple check. Forget all the other conditions and special situations: do whatever you like, but make a grapple check as part of the action. You win: do the action. You lose: action wasted.


This list is of ideas that are really close, but still need something to really make sure they are balanced evenly within the existing 3.5 landscape:

- Remove all +X stat/armor/save items. Instead, give a static +1 to AC, saves, and choice of stat every three levels. (I'm assuming this is in addition to the +1 stat every 4 levels?) The big drawback I see to this is a massive boost in gold for all characters. And I don't think the suggested "double cost for all +X weapon/armors" would fill this gap well, as it would be a massive boon to casters (who ignore that stuff anyway) and a huge penalty to warriors (who depend on those items for their class). However, if it could be balanced fairly, I do like this idea.

- Action points. Not sure how to balance the "pure PC gain" that they give - other than maybe allowing "bosses" to have action points as well, but that still seems to favor PCs. However, this might not really be a bad thing.

- Reduce "rest" time for PCs - potentially down to 2 hours from 8. This hurts per-day items but increases caster power tremendously (and to a small extent, HP-based classes, who are getting healed more often). I like the idea of speeding up play, but the "per day" mechanic would also need a fix - and changing it to "per encounter" is too much, while "per 4 encounters" (theoretically what it "should" be) is too much bookkeeping. Other ideas?


Here are ideas that I think would be tougher to integrate:

- Monster minion/elite/master templates. Seems like too much to worry about when monsters already have CRs. This would add flavor, yes, but it means hand-adjusting every single monster the players encounter. If it were as simple as "1/2 HP = -2 CR" and "x2 HP = +2 CR" then I think it'd be worth it - and I might still try that - but once you start trying to adjust casters, you're asking for serious trouble. Not only are they 10x harder to run already, but you're just as likely to forget special tweaks other than solid, simple numbers (like HP) as not.

- Reducing AoOs. Too much of the 3.5 battle mechanic relies on these; it would take a major overhaul to remove them.

- Changing +/- 4s to +/- 5s. Doesn't seem to really make the math easier, and would be one more rule to remember/get wrong.

- Unearthed Arcana's recharge times. Any mechanic that requires referencing a 3-page table every single time it is used is idiotic.



MojoGM: I'm curious about the spell levels idea you had - what is that?

Another idea I really like but am not sure how to integrate is having casters basically have "per encounter" spells along with their "per day" and/or "per session" stuff. I've already thought of including Eternal Wands - only give them 3/day and make them the same cost as 50 charge ones. This seems to helps shore up the per-encounter numbers fairly well without really hurting any other balance. Other thoughts?

 

[MojoGM]

MojoGM: I'm curious about the spell levels idea you had - what is that?

Basically, if a wizard can cast 5 1st, 4 2nd, and 3 3rd level spells he can just pick any off his list of known spells of the appropriate level. This essentially makes a wizard like a sorcerer, but with any spell he has in his books.

Also, we made 0 level spells at will.

This differers from spell points where a first level spell is 1 point, 2nd is 2, etc, and you can cast any up to the total # of points available (24 in the case above). This is overpower because the wizard *could* cast 24 magic missiles.

So, spell levels work better than points in my opinion.

 

[Archmage]

Basically, if a wizard can cast 5 1st, 4 2nd, and 3 3rd level spells he can just pick any off his list of known spells of the appropriate level. This essentially makes a wizard like a sorcerer, but with any spell he has in his books.

Also, we made 0 level spells at will.

This differers from spell points where a first level spell is 1 point, 2nd is 2, etc, and you can cast any up to the total # of points available (24 in the case above). This is overpower because the wizard *could* cast 24 magic missiles.

So, spell levels work better than points in my opinion.

I've done this in my campaigns since 1st edition. The problem with it in 3/3.5 is that it pretty much removes the sorcerer as a viable class choice, so that is a problem to be solved (unless you don't care for sorcerers, in which case it's no problem at all )

As far as 4e-ish/Saga rules, here's what I've considered (campaign is already underway, so I haven't tried actually using them yet).
* Replace fighter with warblade.
* Second wind from Star Wars.
* One I actually use - the bard can sing a group healing song functionally identical to the dragon shaman's healing aura (a few hp per round healing, only heals any given character up to half)
* Unify saving throws for all classes, or at least narrow the range.
* Allow melee characters to add half their level to their AC.
* Allow recovery of one spell or daily-use ability per day with a full-round action (actually using this one as well).
* A feat every odd level, an ability score increase every even level (have used this since the start of the campaign this past spring).

There's probably a few more, but those are the ones I've given the most thought to.

 

[MojoGM]

I've done this in my campaigns since 1st edition. The problem with it in 3/3.5 is that it pretty much removes the sorcerer as a viable class choice, so that is a problem to be solved (unless you don't care for sorcerers, in which case it's no problem at all )

Well, we don't have a sorcerer PC currently, but the DM gave sorcerers a D6 for hit dice and let them cast in light armor. But like I said we don't have one currently so it's ok.

We've played 2 games with the new method and so far it works well (but then again I'm biased since I play the wizard)

 

[Emirikol]

Sure, we house rule a lot of that stuff already. We thought about combining stuff like hide and move silently, but we're just not in the mood to go through all the work yet.

We've been using HERO POINTS since dragon #118 and the clarification and renaming into action points wasnt much of a change for us.

I'm sure lots of things will get modified for a while before they become "permanent members" of the new D&D. Like tall elves..I like my elves subservient and with Napoleon compleces!

The other tweaky/twinky stuff they're changing isn't much more than giving people endless spells and something to do. Right now, you could house rule endless 1st level spells for the character. That's what it looks like to me..

jh

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

* Allow melee characters to add half their level to their AC.

I really want to understand this. Why?

Is this one of those, "Cause SAGA did it!" things?

I've never noticed AC to be broken in the course of my 3e play.

I think AC is overvalued primarily because it helps mitigate iterative attacks-- but if you remove iterative attacks, that alone might solve the AC arms race. (Again, not that I've ever much noticed it myself.)

Somebody explain the need for the +1/2 level AC bonus to me.