Suggestions to run Epic level adventures that make sense?

[Turanil]

I was just reading this thread where it is shown how to built a 20th level character with Strength and Constitution over 80, who can do 380 pts of damage per round . My first reaction was to roll my eyes until they hached, thinking to ask a question about min/maxing a half-cokroach/half-cow with the appropriate prestige classes. Then I remembered the first time when I did flip through the Epic Level Handbook's pages and saying to myself that this book was grotesque.

But finally I told myself that I am just biased and full of misconceptions. There is no game better than another, since it's just a game after all. But then, I did have to admit how I have been tempted, at times, to play munchkin characters. There can be fun in that after all! So now my question is:

How to run Epic level adventures that make sense?

I mean: I see no point in fighting a super extra dragon/minautor/bear-warrior when you are 25th level, after having fought a normal barbarian minautor (but a big one ) at 12th level. Likewise I see no point for a epic rogue to encounter DC40 locks, when they just were DC25 when he was not epic. IMO, if it's just about the numbers increasing when the PCs' numbers also increase, I would rather stop the game and begin a new campaign (in a new setting) at level 1.

I suppose (I hope!) that there must be good ideas to run epic level adventures that are not just "higher numbers" in the same type of dungeon crawl? Something where it makes sense to be an epic level character. And not obligatory about saving the universe from a super-extra demon that is more evil than even asmodeus once married with orcus?

Any experiences and suggestions?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

No friggin clue how to do what you want. But I like the ExtraDragon/minotuar/bear warriorX idea. I'll spring it on my players some time

 

[Katerek]

Running an Epic Level campaign (note the operative word here: Campaign) is difficult to say the least when you are trying to be focused about it.

One of my current campaigns has been running since 3.0 hit the shelves back in 2000 and the players have their characters almost to 33rd level by this point.

The ELH was well timed and it allowed my players to begin planning appropriately.

In our group we take our gaming seriously and we care about the story archs and all that stuff, but we are ALSO a serious group of unrepentant power gamers. We like it that way, and I tell you what, it is extremely fun.

I am the DM and I can highlight a few things that I have noticed:

In an ongoing game that is slated to go epic it is important to watch the magic item distribution in the early game (pre-epic). One of the biggest balance breakers that I have seen is ridiculously high ability scores. By the time chracters reach epic, one of the very few threats is being able to effectively pass through their PC's saving throws and often if the stats are too high this presents itself as a problem.

Also something you will need to address is how you will treat Epic Spellcasting. There are a few breaks hidden there as well, especially using the seed (forgot the name) that allows stat enhancements, armor enhancements, etc. One of my players found a way to bump his CHA up to an 80 for 20 hours a day.

I could literally go on and on about the various things you run into in an epic game, but I think I can boil it down to a basic premise.

My Epic game works for one reason, and one reason only. I have a great bunch of players that respect my decisions and support what I want to do with my world. If I say something is banned because it will break the boundaries of what I want to do, then they chuckle (I have a Banned Stamp) as I mar my books and on we go. Yes it is possible to have some ridiculous combos if you dig through every resource available and come up with a Huge Fighting Minotaur that can throw a Boat for 1800D6 points of damage, or a Storm Giant Archer that can fire a bow through schools. But those combinations don't necessarily work in every campaign. So I largely don't worry about it.

As a DM you must not be afraid to say no. And your players have to respect that. That is ultimately the bottom line.

I will see if I can get one of my players to sound off and offer his opinion on the subject.

 

[the Jester]

I think the key is that epic level pcs have to go to epic level places, fight epic level bad guys, etc. Standard dungeoneering against kobolds, giants or the like simply no longer yields xp. Most locks are still DC 25; the higher-DC ones are in the legendary places.

You want an epic level challenge? Go find one. You know where they are- you've heard of Orcus and Bel and the Tomb of Horrors. You prolly have a very good idea of where Elminster lives. Do a little research and go after the biggest diamond there is.

A lot of what makes an epic game work is proactive pcs with ties to npcs and stuff in the game. I find that there's an increasing level of roleplaying in my epic game- the pcs are building strongholds, etc.

Remember- epic characters are the ones that will be remembered centuries later. This is your Zagyg. This is your Mordenkainen. There should be schisms around their doctrine, kingdoms forged, cosmic entities overthrown. And stuff.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Here's an idea for an epic campaign.

At low levels (redefined as 1-10), characters are engaged in affairs at a local level. They will be encountering things like wizards and giants, perhaps vampires and dragons. In addition, they will face off against the clerics of rival deities.

At mid levels (redefined as 11-20), characters are engaged in more global affairs. Saving the world from an infestation of undead, etc. Also, they may be fighting the big, bad regional dragon who has been the stuff of legends for 500 years. And, instead of just fighting the clerics of rival deities, they'll be fighting the summoned outsiders of those rival deities (maybe as tough as pit fiends, etc.).

At high levels (21-30), their activities will sometimes take them out of this world and into others. There they will be fighting not just a vampire or a mass infestation of undead, but pockets of undead beings on their home turf (perhaps some advanced nightshades on the plane of shadow). And, instead of fighting a red dragon in a cave (low-level), or a big, bad red dragon in a lava pool inside a volcano (mid-level), they're now fighting a team of fiendish red dragons that are part of an assault squad on the fields of the Abyss in part of the bloodwar. And, instead of fighting the summoned allies of their enemies' deities, they are now up against the avatars of those deities.

At truly epic levels (31+) they are taking on the demigods themselves, those who have been given vast power from their associated deities. They have made themselves known far beyond their own world and have been noticed by not only their deities and their deities' enemies, but by neutral deities as well. They're being courted, perhaps, to join a particular church as demigods--such is their power.

Okay, then it's time for retirement, unless you want to go up and do a "war of the gods" thing.

I did this with my first campaign (1985 to about 1993). The characters from that campaign are now among the deities in my current campaign (which is set on the same planet, but about 1000 years ahead of the previous campaign).

Dave

 

[Katerek]

Here's an idea for an epic campaign.

...[snip]...
Dave

Good stuff. That is pretty much the approach I have taken as well. In fact, this current Epic Game is my second in the same setting. The previous characters are gods and legends and all that.

You and I should compare notes sometimes.

 

[Crothian]

Rmember epic games are not different then low levels ones and like the low levels one they are not all the same. I've ran campaigns where the PCs went to 30th level and no onew got close to an 80 stat...heck, I think one guy got up to a 30. But no one else had anything higher then 24.

Sure the players can do a lot at this point and really have some power, but they are still your players. If you've DMed them from the early levels to the epics then you should know exactly what will challnege them and how to go about it. Remember, even Epic level characters can still be killed to a band of well run and organized Kobolds.

 

[Turanil]

Remember, even Epic level characters can still be killed to a band of well run and organized Kobolds.

You mean "epic kobolds" I suppose?

Something I considered, is (should I ever reach the point where I DM epic adventures), is that beyond 20th level, the characters would become legendary heroes. I think that their Reputation score would increase dramatically beyond 20th level (like +2/level). Such legendary heroes would be watched over by numerous people (spies everywhere, they hardly can go anywhere unoticed, etc.) and even by some deities.

Also, I think that rather than bring hideous rampaging monsters on the world, that only they can battle, I would probably opt for weird alternate planes. What I did read about upcoming "Beyond Countless Doorways" by Monte Cook looks cool for me. Such as having to cross an alien incomprehensible plane before reaching another. A plane where you must make a moderately difficult save, but once every hour (for a 48 hours treck) can be eventually challenging. A world which is magic dead, can also have them to rely on their own abilities only, etc.

Anyway, let the ideas coming!

Thanks

 

[clockworkjoe]

I posted this a while ago, but an epic dungeon would be something like a 3 mile diameter permanent thunder storm where an epic draco lich lairs. The 'rooms' are actually permanet flying platforms connected by walls of forces that only activate by solving a puzzle. Tempest elementals and other baddies fly all around the PCs plus the dracolich occasionally flies by with a breath weapon attack.

 

[Crothian]

You mean "epic kobolds" I suppose?

No, I meant Kobolds.