Suggestions to run Epic level adventures that make sense?
- Thread starter Turanil
- Start date
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
Once you get to level 20 you really shouldn't be hanging out in the Prime Material Plane much. Maybe for vacations if the beaches are nice, but that's it.
As a side note, I've seen a lot of builds for level 20+ and they generally have one thing in common: the guy writing the build didn't play the character from level 1 on up. Sure, you can max a barbarian out on STR and CON, but he's still going to have that puny little WIS and enemy spellcasters are going to take advantage of poor will saves LONG before he gets to 20.
So a min/maxed barbarian may be tough, but he's going to turn into a wimp if he gets too far from the cleric.
As a side note, I've seen a lot of builds for level 20+ and they generally have one thing in common: the guy writing the build didn't play the character from level 1 on up. Sure, you can max a barbarian out on STR and CON, but he's still going to have that puny little WIS and enemy spellcasters are going to take advantage of poor will saves LONG before he gets to 20.
So a min/maxed barbarian may be tough, but he's going to turn into a wimp if he gets too far from the cleric.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Absolutely correct, BG.
Turanil: There are LOTS of places in which being an epic character makes sense. PCs played up to 20th level should become the movers and shakers of their homeworlds, mighty forces on par with individuals like the Chosen of Mystra and the Red Wizard Zulkirs in the Forgotten Realms. At this point, adventures can center around several things:
1) Diplomacy and intrigue. All the power of a rampaging barbarian or a mighty wizard can mean next to nothing in the game of thrones. Epic characters probably are already the rulers of their own realms or perhaps the powers behind the throne; as their personal power hits an apex, it stands to reason that more adventures will center around roleplaying, where while epic powers will prove terrifically useful, they'll need to be wielded in a manner more subtle than called for in a typical dungeon crawl.
2) Protecting the world from Things from Beyond. One of the great tropes of some fantasy-related genres is that the universe is far larger than our primitive understanding lets us believe. The things that might inhabit the realms beyond our own are incomprehensible and potentially deadly. The task of epic characters might well be to protect their beloved world from these outside threats; a lonely battle unknown to any of the world's other inhabitants, and one that's fought in places and on a scale completely unimaginable to them.
3) Exploring the multiverse. As characters reach epic levels, they may get bored of their homeworld and wish to explore or even found realms in the planes beyond; what with the genesis spell, this is within the power of wizards even at (high) nonepic levels. Exploring other planes and founding extraplanar realms means having to deal with creatures on those planes or with potential usurpers, all of whom are likely to be terrifically powerful and worthy epic challenges.
4) Uncovering hidden threats. Certain worlds (like the FR) have long-buried threats held within them; the phaerimm, the evil beings inhabiting Myth Drannor, the Twisted Rune. These threats can conceivably exist below the radar of adventurers for their whole careers, only to be uncovered (and subsequently battled) once the adventurers hit epic level.
What are some key elements to play up in an epic campaign?
1) Setting. This is the big one. "Weird alternate planes," as you said; cloud castles; mighty Underdark realms shrouded in darkness; hidden castles at the bottom of the sea; elemental strongholds floating on the lava of active volcanic craters; lonely dead cities floating in the void of the Negative Energy Plane. These settings are immensely colorful, plausibly qualify to be home to beings capable of challenging epic characters, and may require epic powers just to survive.
2) Weird magic, some of it controllable by the characters. At these levels, extreme effects (entire dead magic planes, eternal whirlwind storms that spit out elder air elementals), are quite plausible and within the powers of the characters to combat. Again, go all out!
3) Pacing: I've always said that epic-level D&D campaigns must rely more on Justice League of America and less on Lord of the Rings in how action is paced. While LotR may form the archetype of the epic fantasy tone, the action in epic-level games is of the superhero style. Sessions should move rapidly in a "cut" style from scene to scene due to the ubiquity of teleportation magic and the rapid pace of combat. Games will jump from plane to plane and halfway across the world in the blink of an eye.
As to the mechanical issues: Well, it's about judicious DM-ing. One immediate thought:
1) Control epic spellcasting. Plainly, epic ability buffs should obey a quadratic rather than linear progression, just like items do. You want to use the fortify seed to bump up ability scores? Fine. It's Spellcraft DC 26 + bonus squared. So a +1 increase is still DC 27, a +2 increase is DC 30, a +3 increase is DC 35, etc. This yields quite reasonable epic DCs anyway; A spell that grants a +8 bonus to an ability score is DC 90, which is relatively easy to match with mitigating factors (DC 70 with a casting time of 10 minutes, or DC 59 if your bard buddy throws in a 6th-level spell). Compare with an epic item, and you'll see that the cost is quite competitive (the spell costs between 531,000 and 630,000 gp to develop, can be cast on multiple targets, and is slotless; the item costs 640,000 gp).
Turanil: There are LOTS of places in which being an epic character makes sense. PCs played up to 20th level should become the movers and shakers of their homeworlds, mighty forces on par with individuals like the Chosen of Mystra and the Red Wizard Zulkirs in the Forgotten Realms. At this point, adventures can center around several things:
1) Diplomacy and intrigue. All the power of a rampaging barbarian or a mighty wizard can mean next to nothing in the game of thrones. Epic characters probably are already the rulers of their own realms or perhaps the powers behind the throne; as their personal power hits an apex, it stands to reason that more adventures will center around roleplaying, where while epic powers will prove terrifically useful, they'll need to be wielded in a manner more subtle than called for in a typical dungeon crawl.
2) Protecting the world from Things from Beyond. One of the great tropes of some fantasy-related genres is that the universe is far larger than our primitive understanding lets us believe. The things that might inhabit the realms beyond our own are incomprehensible and potentially deadly. The task of epic characters might well be to protect their beloved world from these outside threats; a lonely battle unknown to any of the world's other inhabitants, and one that's fought in places and on a scale completely unimaginable to them.
3) Exploring the multiverse. As characters reach epic levels, they may get bored of their homeworld and wish to explore or even found realms in the planes beyond; what with the genesis spell, this is within the power of wizards even at (high) nonepic levels. Exploring other planes and founding extraplanar realms means having to deal with creatures on those planes or with potential usurpers, all of whom are likely to be terrifically powerful and worthy epic challenges.
4) Uncovering hidden threats. Certain worlds (like the FR) have long-buried threats held within them; the phaerimm, the evil beings inhabiting Myth Drannor, the Twisted Rune. These threats can conceivably exist below the radar of adventurers for their whole careers, only to be uncovered (and subsequently battled) once the adventurers hit epic level.
What are some key elements to play up in an epic campaign?
1) Setting. This is the big one. "Weird alternate planes," as you said; cloud castles; mighty Underdark realms shrouded in darkness; hidden castles at the bottom of the sea; elemental strongholds floating on the lava of active volcanic craters; lonely dead cities floating in the void of the Negative Energy Plane. These settings are immensely colorful, plausibly qualify to be home to beings capable of challenging epic characters, and may require epic powers just to survive.
2) Weird magic, some of it controllable by the characters. At these levels, extreme effects (entire dead magic planes, eternal whirlwind storms that spit out elder air elementals), are quite plausible and within the powers of the characters to combat. Again, go all out!
3) Pacing: I've always said that epic-level D&D campaigns must rely more on Justice League of America and less on Lord of the Rings in how action is paced. While LotR may form the archetype of the epic fantasy tone, the action in epic-level games is of the superhero style. Sessions should move rapidly in a "cut" style from scene to scene due to the ubiquity of teleportation magic and the rapid pace of combat. Games will jump from plane to plane and halfway across the world in the blink of an eye.
As to the mechanical issues: Well, it's about judicious DM-ing. One immediate thought:
1) Control epic spellcasting. Plainly, epic ability buffs should obey a quadratic rather than linear progression, just like items do. You want to use the fortify seed to bump up ability scores? Fine. It's Spellcraft DC 26 + bonus squared. So a +1 increase is still DC 27, a +2 increase is DC 30, a +3 increase is DC 35, etc. This yields quite reasonable epic DCs anyway; A spell that grants a +8 bonus to an ability score is DC 90, which is relatively easy to match with mitigating factors (DC 70 with a casting time of 10 minutes, or DC 59 if your bard buddy throws in a 6th-level spell). Compare with an epic item, and you'll see that the cost is quite competitive (the spell costs between 531,000 and 630,000 gp to develop, can be cast on multiple targets, and is slotless; the item costs 640,000 gp).
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
ruleslawyer said:
"Justice League of America"? How about "The Authority"?
Seriously, when the PCs aren't busy with fighting off invasions from other dimensions, they will realize that they can do whatever they want to the people and normal rulers of their campaign world. So what are they going to do with their powers? Rewarding the Just and punishing the Wicked? But how can they safely determine who is Just and who is Wicked?
Eventually, if they choose to get involved in politics at all, pretty much every ruler - even the most saintly ones - will resent them for their power. After all, before the PCs arrived on the scene, absolute legal authority actually meant something. Now they all know that they could be killed and replaced at any time by the PCs. Well, are they going to stand for that?
And this might trickle down to the general population. What will the PCs do if the population of a city they visit stages mass demonstrations against them?
The RPG "Aberrant" also had quite a few good things to say about this...
RangerWickett
Legend
Epic hurts my brain.
I think it's possible to have an epic world from the get go, without the PCs having to go to other dimensions (though that's fun too).
Earth is an epic world, in its own way. We have people who have the power to destroy the world with a few words and a hand gesture. We have people who travel to other worlds. We have entertainers who can reach hundreds of millions of fans, and warriors who never tire and who can be shot at with hundreds of weapons without dying.
Now, you or I, we'll never try to attack the president, and though we might hear about astronauts and be afraid of Russian spy satellites, we still go about our daily lives. We'll never meet Michael Jackson or Steven Spielberg, but some of us aspire to be as famous (though perhaps not as strange). And thankfully, at least in our neck of the woods, tanks don't roll into our towns and kill hundreds of civilians.
Cops still track down criminals, and the coast guard still rescues people from hurricanes, and we still try to stop street gangs, and avenge murders, and still explore jungles. Basically, we still have low-level adventures even though people are engaged in world-shaking events. It's just that we're used to the world shaking, and as long as it doesn't shake too hard in our neck of the woods, we'll usually be okay.
Now, that's the flavor of epic games. As far as the rules? Heh. Epic rules suck, in my honest opinion. If anything else, combat at high levels deserves to be streamlined, rather than cluttered up with extra dice, extra templates, tons of modifiers, ridiculous magic items that people track but that add no narrative value to the game. About the only thing simple about the epic rules is that now save or die spells kill people off a lot more often than hacking and slashing does, and that just isn't fun.
I think it's possible to have an epic world from the get go, without the PCs having to go to other dimensions (though that's fun too).
Earth is an epic world, in its own way. We have people who have the power to destroy the world with a few words and a hand gesture. We have people who travel to other worlds. We have entertainers who can reach hundreds of millions of fans, and warriors who never tire and who can be shot at with hundreds of weapons without dying.
Now, you or I, we'll never try to attack the president, and though we might hear about astronauts and be afraid of Russian spy satellites, we still go about our daily lives. We'll never meet Michael Jackson or Steven Spielberg, but some of us aspire to be as famous (though perhaps not as strange). And thankfully, at least in our neck of the woods, tanks don't roll into our towns and kill hundreds of civilians.
Cops still track down criminals, and the coast guard still rescues people from hurricanes, and we still try to stop street gangs, and avenge murders, and still explore jungles. Basically, we still have low-level adventures even though people are engaged in world-shaking events. It's just that we're used to the world shaking, and as long as it doesn't shake too hard in our neck of the woods, we'll usually be okay.
Now, that's the flavor of epic games. As far as the rules? Heh. Epic rules suck, in my honest opinion. If anything else, combat at high levels deserves to be streamlined, rather than cluttered up with extra dice, extra templates, tons of modifiers, ridiculous magic items that people track but that add no narrative value to the game. About the only thing simple about the epic rules is that now save or die spells kill people off a lot more often than hacking and slashing does, and that just isn't fun.
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