Summary of Spell Casting with a Shield?

[Infiniti2000]

Then theres the two handed weapon issue for melee clerics with good strength. Easier than messing around with shields and you get all your AOOs.

Yeah, well, that's just another assumption. There's no rule that says that switching from two hands to one or vice versa is a free action (or no action even), either. I say that releasing a grip is a free action, but regaining a two-handed grip is equivalent to "drawing a weapon" (i.e. a move action that does not provoke an AoO or a free action with Quick Draw).

 

[Krud]

I could live with that as a ruling. You'd keep your AOOs, at the sacrifice of only getting a 5ft step. I've seen people rule either way on this issue. My current DM is pretty strict on this whole thing, including move equivalent actions for drawing wands etc, to the point where I'm wondering if its worth having a weapon at all for my cleric since I want to keep using a heavy shield for the AC. Sadly we're using a modified weapon group proficiency system so my cleric doesn't automatically get access to the spiked gauntlet. I wish I'd thought about this issue at character creation

 

[JiffyPopTart]

That is the point of balance - to keep all the players feeling that their PCs get to contribute roughly equally (dependent on circumstance, but on the average all having an equal contribution).

So put it up to a vote for the other players how you (or the GM if its not you) rule on the issue. If nobody else cares then just say thats how its done and let them know the NPCs get to use the same rules.

We had a player in our game who loved to use the Netbook of Feats for his Bowslinger. Every once in awhile he would pick a feat that was a little overpowered. We would discuss how it seemed a little too powerful and he would happily pick something more in-line with everyone else.

Perhaps I have an extra-awesome group, but thats how I have always played RPGs.

DS

 

[JiffyPopTart]

The game balance issue that originated this was too many spellcasters (usually clerics with weapons and heavy shields) who just didn't give any thought at all to how exactly they were casting spells with DF/M/S components when they didn't have a hand free.

When the caster has a potential shield bonus of +3 to +7 AC (+1 to +5 heavy shield), plus regular attacks with the weapon hand, plus spells, that's taking things a little too far IMO.

I have no problem saying that the clerics have to use a light sheild or a buckler to pull the whole thing off. That sort of makes the light shield somewhat useful when normally it is never looked at twice.

Even if you let the cleric use a heavy vs. a light and STILL pull off the combo you are only giving them 1 extra point of AC.

DS

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Yeah, well, that's just another assumption. There's no rule that says that switching from two hands to one or vice versa is a free action (or no action even), either. I say that releasing a grip is a free action, but regaining a two-handed grip is equivalent to "drawing a weapon" (i.e. a move action that does not provoke an AoO or a free action with Quick Draw).

Watch someone use a Bo-Staff for 6 seconds and count how many times they change their grips from 1 to 2 handedness.

You can even do the routine while walking at a decent pace (30' move).

Do you also not let archer get a full round of attacks with rapid-shot because they are doing too many free actions?

Assuming a simple 1st level bowman with rapid-shot.

1. Draw arrow from quiver (free)
2. Nock arrow (free)
3. Fire arrow
4. Draw arrow from quiver (free)
5. Nock arrow (free)
6. Fire arrow*
7. Take a 5' step

vs.

1. Let go of staff with 1 hand (free)
2. Draw components from spellpouch (free)
3. Cast spell
4. Put hand back on staff (free)
5. Take a 5' step

*Note that technically you could loophole in drawing a 3rd arrow to keep in your primary hand so that you could be wielding a melee weapon (improvised) and get AoOs during your opponents turn. This would speed up your following round as you could skip step 1 since you already have an arrow in your hand.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I don't recall a WotC 3.5 feat that allows this. If I've missed one please let me know. There are class abilities that allow it - but IIRC they are all touch spells only and not "ranged" ones.

The arcane archer allows you to cast any "area" spell (fireball or whathaveyou) into an arrow and fire the arrow on the same turn. That means during the round you provide the V,S,M for the spell, get the spell components, get the arrow from the quiver and shoot it all in one round as a STANDARD ACTION meaning you would also get to trot your 30' afterwards.

DS

 

[irdeggman]

The arcane archer allows you to cast any "area" spell (fireball or whathaveyou) into an arrow and fire the arrow on the same turn. That means during the round you provide the V,S,M for the spell, get the spell components, get the arrow from the quiver and shoot it all in one round as a STANDARD ACTION meaning you would also get to trot your 30' afterwards.

DS

Good example. Still no feat though.

But what is the level of the character in question at that point?

5th level wizard (in order to cast 3rd level spells).

+6 BAB prerequisite for PrCl.

So 5th level wizard (+2 BAB) plus 4 levels of fighter (+4 BAB and the feats necessary) = 9th level character. 10th level before taking the 1st level of the PrCl and the Imbue spell ability is a 2nd level ability so a minimum character level of 11th level. Pretty steep to gain that ability. A straight class wizard can do much more at 11th level. A quickened spell and a standard one will yield 2 10 HD fireballs in the same round.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Watch someone use a Bo-Staff for 6 seconds and count how many times they change their grips from 1 to 2 handedness.

I happen to be an expert with the bo and the answer is zero in a real combat. If you fight me and we both have a bo, I can guarantee you'll lose your weapon (or worse) if you take a hand off it.

You can even do the routine while walking at a decent pace (30' move).

Completely meaningless. I've seen people throw the bo up in the air for a show, but it certainly doesn't make it a good combat tactic. It's plain stupidity.

Do you also not let archer get a full round of attacks with rapid-shot because they are doing too many free actions?

Irrelevant strawman and doesn't pertain to two-handed or double weapons at all. Drawing ammunition is explicitly allowed as a free action: (from the SRD) "Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action."

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In any case, what you seem to be arguing is that if there are few people who are so good with a quarterstaff that they can twirl it around like a baton while moving 30ft, then everyone should be allowed to do it.

Doesn't that seem like it requires experience--you know, feats or class abilities or something--to do all those special maneuvers?

I know a guy whose really good with the sword and can twirl it and do all kinds of fancy maneuvers. Does that mean anyone who picks up a sword should be able to do the same thing?

 

[Prism]

One of the reasons that we allow a cleric with a light shield to freely move their weapon into their shield and back again is mainly for simplicity. For the same reason we don't keep track of whether the wizard has got one or two hands on his staff or the whether the spellcasting monster who also wields a two handed weapon has got two hands on their weapon. I don't want to get into a situation as the DM where a monster moves and then casts a spell, only to find they have no hand on their great sword (and no move action to put it back on), to find that for the next round they can't use AoO's with the sword and can't have their full attack sequence since they have to use a move to put their hand back on. I don't think the players would apreciate it either. The cleric would have to drop their weapon to be able to move and cure someone in combat if they had a shield and one handed weapon

If its a move action to draw a two handed weapon and place your second hand on the weapon ready to attack, I don't also see that its a move action to just place your hand on the weapon. Maybe its not a free either but we haven't really got anything in between

Lets say you did rule that its a move action to swap hands or place your other hand on the weapon. What effect would the quick draw feat have? Quick draw would allow you to draw several weapons during a single round and place both hands on each of them should you so wish. Would it also let you place your off hand on a light weapon (to cast the spell) and then after the spell place your primary hand back on the weapon. I'm assuming its free to remove your hand from the weapon each time

 

[Question]

Yea it just creates un-necessary complications IMHO.