Summon Monster alignments

[smetzger]

FWIW I think one of the most sensible things is to give all "protection from x" spells the same basic ability to hedge out summoned creatures. The difference between them seems like it was based on wonky writing rather than a specific desire to make one version less effective than the others. Simplifies the basic question here no end.

Yeah, thats what I do. So, Protection from Evil hedges out all summoned creatures.

 

[Quasqueton]

FWIW I think one of the most sensible things is to give all "protection from x" spells the same basic ability to hedge out summoned creatures. The difference between them seems like it was based on wonky writing rather than a specific desire to make one version less effective than the others. Simplifies the basic question here no end.

I understand there was some wonky text somewhere in the protection spell descriptions, but I thought the "spirit" of the spells was to let in "friendly" summoned creatures.

Like PfEvil lets Goods in, PfG lets Evils in, PfChaos lets Lawfuls in, and PfLaw lets Chaotics in. Did I misunderstand?

Quasqueton

 

[MerakSpielman]

Not if your current opponent is susceptible to one kind of "Smite" ability, but not the other. More options in a spell always equals more power.

Your argument doesn't hold much water because, even if an enemy would require a Smite Good or a Smite Evil, I'm not suggesting that any given caster be able to summon a critter of either Celestial or Fiendish nature - they're still limited to their normal templates.

As it is, the spell gives unequal benefits to casters of different alignment. For an evil caster, for instance, Summon Monster II is much more verstile and useful than it is for a good caster.

 

[frankthedm]

Your argument doesn't hold much water because, even if an enemy would require a Smite Good or a Smite Evil, I'm not suggesting that any given caster be able to summon a critter of either Celestial or Fiendish nature - they're still limited to their normal templates.

As it is, the spell gives unequal benefits to casters of different alignment. For an evil caster, for instance, Summon Monster II is much more verstile and useful than it is for a good caster.

That is the nature of evil to use others for your bidding, The evil summons usually do have more stength to them, just as there are far more evil poison injecting monsters. Its one of those standards of fantasy.

Evil things LIKE being brought to the mortal world and likly are willing to volenteer to be torn apart temporarily there. Far safer than staying at home. Good outsiders are usually happy doing whatever thay are doing and fewer types have the incling to answer Mortal whims.


Summon Monster
1st Level
Celestial dog LG
Celestial owl LG
Celestial giant fire beetle NG
Celestial porpoise1 NG
Celestial badger CG
Celestial monkey CG
Fiendish dire rat LE
Fiendish raven LE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Medium NE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Small NE
Fiendish hawk CE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Small CE
Fiendish octopus1 CE
Fiendish snake, Small viper CE
2nd Level
Celestial giant bee LG
Celestial giant bombardier beetle NG
Celestial riding dog NG
Celestial eagle CG
Lemure (devil) LE
Fiendish squid1 LE
Fiendish wolf LE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Large NE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Medium NE
Fiendish shark, Medium1 NE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Medium CE
Fiendish snake, Medium viper CE
3rd Level
Celestial black bear LG
Celestial bison NG
Celestial dire badger CG
Celestial hippogriff CG
Elemental, Small (any) N
Fiendish ape LE
Fiendish dire weasel LE
Hell hound LE
Fiendish snake, constrictor LE
Fiendish boar NE
Fiendish dire bat NE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Huge NE
Fiendish crocodile CE
Dretch (demon) CE
Fiendish snake, Large viper CE
Fiendish wolverine CE
4th Level
Archon, lantern LG
Celestial giant owl LG
Celestial giant eagle CG
Celestial lion CG
Mephit (any) N
Fiendish dire wolf LE
Fiendish giant wasp LE
Fiendish giant praying mantis NE
Fiendish shark, Large1 NE
Yeth hound NE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Large CE
Fiendish snake, Huge viper CE
Howler CE
5th Level
Archon, hound LG
Celestial brown bear LG
Celestial giant stag beetle NG
Celestial sea cat1 NG
Celestial griffon CG
Elemental, Medium (any) N
Achaierai LE
Devil, bearded LE
Fiendish deinonychus LE
Fiendish dire ape LE
Fiendish dire boar NE
Fiendish shark, Huge NE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Large NE
Shadow mastiff NE
Fiendish dire wolverine CE
Fiendish giant crocodile CE
Fiendish tiger CE
6th Level
Celestial polar bear LG
Celestial orca whale1 NG
Bralani (eladrin) CG
Celestial dire lion CG
Elemental, Large (any) N
Janni (genie) N
Chaos beast CN
Devil, chain LE
Xill LE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Gargantuan NE
Fiendish rhinoceros NE
Fiendish elasmosaurus1 CE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Huge CE
Fiendish snake, giant constrictor CE
7th Level
Celestial elephant LG
Avoral (guardinal) NG
Celestial baleen whale1 NG
Djinni (genie) CG
Elemental, Huge (any) N
Invisible stalker N
Devil, bone LE
Fiendish megaraptor LE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Huge NE
Babau (demon) CE
Fiendish giant octopus1 CE
Fiendish girallon CE
8th Level
Celestial dire bear LG
Celestial cachalot whale1 NG
Celestial triceratops NG
Lillend CG
Elemental, greater (any) N
Fiendish giant squid1 LE
Hellcat LE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Colossal NE
Fiendish dire tiger CE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Gargantuan CE
Fiendish tyrannosaurus CE
Vrock (demon) CE
9th Level
Couatl LG
Leonal (guardinal) NG
Celestial roc CG
Elemental, elder (any) N
Devil, barbed LE
Fiendish dire shark1 NE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Gargantuan NE
Night hag NE
Bebilith (demon) CE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Colossal CE
Hezrou (demon) CE

 

[MerakSpielman]

That is the nature of evil to use others for your bidding, The evil summons usually do have more stength to them, just as there are far more evil poison injecting monsters. Its one of those standards of fantasy.

Evil things LIKE being brought to the mortal world and likly are willing to volenteer to be torn apart temporarily there. Far safer than staying at home. Good outsiders are usually happy doing whatever thay are doing and fewer types have the incling to answer Mortal whims.

Nice flavor text. Too bad it isn't included anywhere in, say, the rulebooks.

Every other spell is just as effective regardless of the alignment of the caster. I see no reason this one should be any different.

 

[Li Shenron]

Except, Glyfair, if you'd keep reading in the ECS, it also mentions that the gods don't restrict spells, either - so Good clerics of Good gods can cast Evil spells.

I suppose that also clerics can cast spells with opposite alignment in Eberron. It doesn't make sense if they removed the deity's restriction but not the character's restriction...

 

[frankthedm]

Nice flavor text. Too bad it isn't included anywhere in, say, the rulebooks.

Every other spell is just as effective regardless of the alignment of the caster. I see no reason this one should be any different.

Evil's superiorty for summoning is clearly evidenced by the summoning lists themselves, which are "in the rules".

If you cannot "see" why summoning is stronger for evil, then watch a few movies about creatures being summoned, most times it is something evil, just as it is in written fantasy. The D&D rules have emulated such standard concepts for a very long time. Sometimes things that are standards for fantasy don't need to be restated in the rules.