Summon Monster alignments

[F5]

This is true for Calling spells (planar binding, etc.), and it gets pretty wonky, too. One issue that was hard for me to wrap my brain around was that when you use Planr Binding to call an Astral Deva away from whatever heavenly derring-do it was undertaking, imprison it in a 10' circle, and compel it to do your bidding, this is a GOOD spell. Similarly, binding a Pit Fiend that's up to no good, and leaving it imprisoned to prevent it from further evil is an EVIL spell.

It just goes to show that the descriptor of a spell doesn't necessarily correspond to the intentions of the caster. It's just a way to determine how it enteracts with other effects.

 

[Li Shenron]

This is true for Calling spells (planar binding, etc.), and it gets pretty wonky, too. One issue that was hard for me to wrap my brain around was that when you use Planr Binding to call an Astral Deva away from whatever heavenly derring-do it was undertaking, imprison it in a 10' circle, and compel it to do your bidding, this is a GOOD spell. Similarly, binding a Pit Fiend that's up to no good, and leaving it imprisoned to prevent it from further evil is an EVIL spell.

It just goes to show that the descriptor of a spell doesn't necessarily correspond to the intentions of the caster. It's just a way to determine how it enteracts with other effects.

It may have something to do with the fact that some binding spells give the creature a chance to ask you something in return (in which case, the Astral Deva would ask something good and the Pit Fiend something evil), but I don't know if this is the case with the spell you have in mind, and definitely there are other examples when this wouldn't be required.

However, I usually think the point is that for example an evil deity would not grant a spell which summoned a good outsider. Perhaps the deity wouldn't despise the use of an Astral Deva, or even the abuse of it, or perhaps the deity itself could not summon good outsiders. It's kind of late explanation however...

 

[F5]

However, I usually think the point is that for example an evil deity would not grant a spell which summoned a good outsider.

I think it's like you were saying before...a cleric of a given alignemnt just can't cast summoning spells that are opposed to their alignment; those creatures are unavailable. A Good diety can't grant the caster an Evil spell, even if their intentions are Good.

I was mostly thinking of Arcane calling spells, where the caster's alignment doesn't really matter, rather than the Divine versions. Even if the Astral Deva you've just bound asks for something good in exchange, you're still imprisoning it and forcing it to barter for its' freedom. Kind of a rude thing to do to a shining paragon of goodness...

 

[Lodow MoBo]

Then we looked down the list of summonable monsters, and found the list really wonky. For instance, SMIII gives a LG cleric only 2 monsters plus a small elemental (and one of those two monsters is a *bison*). But a CE cleric has 7 options plus the elemental.

Just wanted to add:
You marked the bison like it was bad. That Bison is a bag of own. The party always feels better when the sacred cow comes out.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I just don't see why it was apparently unbalanced to simply have a list of animals, with the stipulation that they gain either the Celestial or Fiendish template, based on the alignment of the caster. Honestly, why is Celestial Badger on the list, but not Fiendish Badger? They're exactly equally powerful!

 

[Glyfair]

Only clerics have a defined problem with the summon alignments. A cleric cannot summon a monster of an opposed alignment (his or his deity's). A CG cleric cannot summon a Lawful or Evil creature.

Which leads to an interesting situation when a CE cleric of a LG god tries to cast a summoning spell. Pretty much, he is limited to Neutral creatures.

This isn't possible in standard D&D, but is possible in Eberron (which has eliminated the requirement for clerics to be within one step of their deity).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Except, Glyfair, if you'd keep reading in the ECS, it also mentions that the gods don't restrict spells, either - so Good clerics of Good gods can cast Evil spells.

 

[Glyfair]

Except, Glyfair, if you'd keep reading in the ECS, it also mentions that the gods don't restrict spells, either - so Good clerics of Good gods can cast Evil spells.

Well, it has been a while since I read that section (since I'm running a wizard). Makes sense, otherwise those that have strayed from the gods "supposed alignment" would stand out a bit more.

 

[Plane Sailing]

FWIW I think one of the most sensible things is to give all "protection from x" spells the same basic ability to hedge out summoned creatures. The difference between them seems like it was based on wonky writing rather than a specific desire to make one version less effective than the others. Simplifies the basic question here no end.

Cheers

 

[dcollins]

Honestly, why is Celestial Badger on the list, but not Fiendish Badger? They're exactly equally powerful!

Not if your current opponent is susceptible to one kind of "Smite" ability, but not the other. More options in a spell always equals more power.