Summon Monster duration

[Greatwyrm]

If a spell (that causes damage if something should enter its area of effect) should appear in round 2, and had a duration of 1 round, it would disappear just before the caster's turn in round 3. We agree on this?

This would allow the one round spell to cause damage in round 2, and in PART of round 3, just like Monster summoning would.

IceBear [/B]

Ahhh, I think I see where I may have been arguing the same side of the question as you.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You're looking at each round as the guy who won initiative through the guy who got the lowest. I'm looking at a round as the caster's turn up until his next turn, regardless of what else is going on.

If this is correct, I'd say I'm now on the same page as you are, and would agree with you.

 

[Artoomis]

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think my original stance is correct.

If a spell (that causes damage if something should enter its area of effect) should appear in round 2, and had a duration of 1 round, it would disappear just before the caster's turn in round 3. We agree on this?

This would allow the one round spell to cause damage in round 2, and in PART of round 3, just like Monster summoning would.

IceBear

You are correct in your middle paragraph. The extra line about when the monsters disappear from Monster Summoning is needed to clarify what happens with the monsters.

Normally, they would stay for one round - that is, from the time they attacked in round two until just before they would attack again in round 3.

So the question is what does "Summoned creatures act normally on the last round of the spell and disappear at the end of their turn." mean, or, more particularly, when is the "last round" of the spell?

Let's use another example to try and clarify this. Let's use a one action spell that lasts one round.

Acid Fog is a good example. You cast the spell in round one and everyone in it's area of effect is affected. They are affected in round one, though anyone that enters the area of effect will get affected when then enter the fog. The fog is gone just before your actions in round two.

So far so good, right?

Now, what was the spell's last round? I think it should be considered round one, for that is the round is was activated and when it affects characters - it lasts until sometime into round 2, that's true, but it's not affecting anyone in round two unless they walk into it's area of effect. Which is to say everyone gets one chance to be affected, and one only.

The same hold true for Monster Summoning, but the extra statement about when monsters disappear helps you to know that they do not stick around foe most of a round simply being targets at the end of the spell.

When spell duration (in rounds) gets confusing, just remember that the system is set up to give one chance to affect characters per round of duration. Unless there is a really clear departure from this general rule, use it to help understand how duration in rounds is supposed to work.

Another way to think about is this:

Let's say you are all around the table and it's your turn. You are 2nd level and cast an Acid Fog for your standard action.

Next round (round 2) the DM says, "Your Acid Fog has been up for one round already, right. So this is the last round for it, right?"

Keeping in mind that rounds are not really distinct from each other in 3e, rather they are kind of a continuous flow, you'd say, "Yes this is the last round, it will last from now until just before my next turn."

I think the thing that is confusing you is the artificial barrier between round that is pretty much gone in 3e. A round in 3e is not so much from the highest initiative to the lowest as it is from an initiative until just before that initiative comes up again.

Let me try with numbers.

Lets say we have good guys Roy, and Rogers and bad guy "All-in-Black"

Initiatives are:

Roy = 10
All-in-Black = 15
Rogers = 20

and Rogers is the spell caster.

Rogers goes first, with a summon monster (1 round casting, 1 round duration). Nothing happens yet.
All-in-Black attacks Rogers.
Roy attacks All-in-Black.
Rogers' monsters attack - but, because this is a one round duration, this is their last round.

Normally, this last round would last until just before the same initiative on which they just acted. But, because of the description in monster Summoning, they attack and then disappear.

Note the lack of any mention of round numbers - that's because it's not really relevant in 3e.

That was kind of long - does that help?

 

[IceBear]

I completely disagree with your interpretation of that line in the Summon Monster description, and that's where our fundamental difference comes in. To me, the defaut way a one round spell duration is handled is it disappears just before the wizard's action in the following round. That sentence means that the monster gets to act one more time before it ends.

I see one round as starting from the end of the casters action in round 1 to just before his action in round 2.

Let's use your Acid Fog example

Hobgoblin #1 - Initiative 18
Wizard - Initiative 16
Hobgoblin #2 - Initiative 12

Round 1 - Hobgoblin #1 moves closer.
- Wizard starts casts Acid Fog
- Hobgoblin #2 runs closer

Round 2 - Hobgoblin #1 moves closer
- Wizard's Acid Fog comes into effect on Hobgoblin #2
- Wizard moves away
- Hobgoblin #2 doesn't do anything due to panic

Round 3 - Hobgoblin #1 moves into Acid Fog and takes damage
- Acid Fog vanishes
- Wizard gets to act.
- Hobgoblin gets to act.

Thus, a spell with a one round duration causes damage over two rounds (really one round, but it is over two combat rounds).

It seems to me that you are having the spell end right when Round 3 starts, not right before the wizard's action.

That sentence, in my opinion, is there to reinforce that the monster actually appears a split-second before the wizard's action in round #2, and thus has a split-second to act before the wizard's action in round #3 (and thus the end of the spell).

I look at your interpretation of that sentence as keeping the spell from lasting one round.

IceBear

 

[Greatwyrm]

That sentence, in my opinion, is there to reinforce that the monster actually appears a split-second before the wizard's action in round #2, and thus has a split-second to act before the wizard's action in round #3 (and thus the end of the spell).

I look at your interpretation of that sentence as keeping the spell from lasting one round.

IceBear

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. If the duration is one round, why should the monsters be allowed to take two rounds worth of actions?

 

[IceBear]

For the same reason that the Acid Fog with a one round duration caused damage over two rounds.

I really see the Initiative count for the summoned monster as being like the initiative count a fighter has been he takes a readied action to attack a spellcaster - it's just a fraction of a second *BEFORE* the spellcaster action from then on. Thus, the Summoned Monster gets in one last blow before the wizard's round starts and thus ending the spell, which is why they added that clarifying (actually muddying) sentence in the spell.

If they didn't have that sentence, I'd have the monster disappear before it could take any actions, just like you.

IceBear

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

Examples and all are fine, but they aren't really helping one side or the other. I think we can all see both sides fairly clearly. It's funny that the one thing we do all agree on is that Monster Summoning does not last one round per level

The choice is to either shorten it by nearly a full round, or extend it by one action. Which way did the designers mean it? Honestly I don't think they thought about it at all really. If they had, they would have put one more sentence in the spell description to explain it. It would be more consistent if a summoned monster got one chance to attack per caster level, but that's just not what they wrote. With what is written, the spell is either shorter or longer than 1 round/level. We either have to

1) House rule it to be consistent and fair
2) Go with the shorter duration and cost the caster a round of benefits over and above the extra attack.
3) Go with the long duration and allow a number of attacks equal to caster level +1.

None of the solutions are particularily good; but nothing short of an erratta is going to solve the initial mistake.

 

[Artoomis]

I think we now see each other's positions pretty well.

One more comment (well, maybe just one, maybe not).

Let's say the spell caster has initiative 16.

Let's assume the sentence in question did not exist. What would happen? The monsters would appear on initiative 16, attack, and then hang around for the rest of the round until just before they would act again, and then they would be gone just before the next initiative 16. Thus their only round of existence is from initiative 16 to just before initiative 16. This is their one round of duration. Since it is only a one round duration, this is also their last round.

Now let's add that (now infamous) sentence back in.

Well, let's see, the last round is from initiative 16 to just before initiative 16 (note: this is the important concept - they don't last from round 2 to round 3, they last from initiative 16 until initiative 16 comes up again). So, they would disappear just after they attack the first time, because they are already in their last round and the spell says they attack and then disappear when in their last round.

As far as they are concerned, there is no such thing as "round two" or round "three" or any such thing, there is only from initiative 16 to just before initiative 16. That's a round for them.

So, with one round duration, they get one chance to act. Not that this also fits with all other one-round duration spells - one chance to do something.

The only difference is that with Acid Fog, say, after it's activated it gets to hang around for the rest of the round to possibly affect characters who walk into it. Monsters don't get the same thing - they don't get to hang around as targets or to act on AoOs.

 

[IceBear]

I agree that we all agree it's not REALLY one round/level.

However, I do feel that giving the monster one last action as closer to how spells with one round duration works than the other choices.

Maybe they should have said that the Monster cannot take any actions in the last round of the spell to keep the monster from getting a last action.

If a wizard had cast Acid Arrow on a fighter, the damage per round is applied at the caster's turn in the initiative cycle, does it not? If the fighter was down to 1hp and his initiative was just before the wizard's he would get in one last attack before the acid damage kicked in an killed him. I see this as principly the same as the spell duration "killing" the monster. The problem occurs because the spell takes effect just before the caster's turn in round 2, and is thus "outside" of the caster's round.

IceBear

 

[IceBear]

Again, I understand your reasoning, but what is the point of saying they act normally in the last round of the spell? If they didn't state that, I wouldn't have any issue whatsoever. However, they seem to be emphasizing something with that, that they didn't need to emphasize. If it just said that the monster disappears when the duration is up, I would have had the monster disappear right at the beginning of the wizards turn.

With that sentence in the spell description, I see the monster as appearing at Initiative + 0.2 and the spell ending at Initiative + 0.1. The monster appears and THEN the wizard gets to act. The spell ends just before the wizard next gets to act. That statement in the spell description, to me reinforces that the monster is just outside of the wizard's round.

Without the sentence I would have both occuring at Initiative + 0.1.

IceBear

 

[Artoomis]

How about this for a modified sentence:

Summoned creatures act normally on the last round of the spell and disappear at the end of their turn [rather than sticking around until just before their next turn.]

That's the way I read it.

Let's look at how we are each defining the "last round of the spell."

Without the sentence the sequence would be:

Round 1, Initiative 16. Spell is cast.
Round 2, Monsters appear. (After 15 but before 16) and on Initiative 16 the Monsters attack.
Round 3, Monsters disappear. (After 15 but before 16)

You say the last round is round 3, right?

I say the last round is from intiative 16 to just before 16, and that the terms "round 2" and "round 3" have no meaning here.

Does that about sum it up?