Summon Monster spells underpowered for elementals?

[Celebrim]

Bonedagger: I don't understand how haste would help. Monster Summoning X is still a full round spell. As I understand it, haste would let you take another partial action on the same round that you took a full round action, but it wouldn't make the full round action less than a full round action. Nor could you begin a full round action on the same round you cast haste (itself a standard action).

Even if it does, you've now spent a 3rd level and 5th level spell to begin dealing with your opponent. I feel like I've made you plenty busy already.

 

[Bonedagger]

Bonedagger: I don't understand how haste would help. Monster Summoning X is still a full round spell. As I understand it, haste would let you take another partial action on the same round that you took a full round action, but it wouldn't make the full round action less than a full round action.

Then you have gotten it wrong. Look at page 127 in PHB. Actions and rounds function undependent of eachother. You can complete a full-round action with a partial action. Only in exceptional situations can you elect to take a partial action as an extra action.

In the same way. If all you can do is a partial action, casting a full-round spell takes one extra round. (See Start Full-Round Action on same page)

An action is an action. It doesn't get different rules just because it is used to cast a spell.

BTW. This has also been covered by the Sage and Monte Cook if that would interest you.

Nor could you begin a full round action on the same round you cast haste (itself a standard action).

Again. See Start Full-Round Action on page 127 PHB under Partial Actions.

Even if it does, you've now spent a 3rd level and 5th level spell to begin dealing with your opponent. I feel like I've made you plenty busy already.

The third level spell was not spend because of that single opponent. And in your example the archer/rogue was 9th level, like the caster. A 5th level spell took care of him. In that case I had expected to be a bit more busy. I would be prepared to use all my prepared spells against him.

 

[Forrester]

This is getting off topic, but my understanding was that a Hasted character casting a full-round spell could NOT do it in a partial action. They'd finish it on their initiative, but it would take all round (in other words, they finish it in their standard action + partial action).

It's silly, and an artifact of how to deal with such spells in a turn-based system.

Now, back to them wimpy elementals, please!

 

[Bonedagger]

This is getting off topic, but my understanding was that a Hasted character casting a full-round spell could NOT do it in a partial action.

Nobody said that.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The elemental summoning is particularly wimpy if you compare it with earlier editions...

Certainly in 1e, there were 3 strengths of elemental

8HD (summoned from a staff)
12HD (summoned from a censer/brazier/bowl)
16HD summoned by - you guessed it - a 5th level spell.

So in earlier editions the 5th level spell summoned a 16HD elemental which could potentially go uncontrolled (but that didn't really matter since you always cast protection from evil first, right?). In 3rd edition a 5th level spell summons a 4HD elemental which will always serve you faithfully.

Sure sounds nerfed to me.

 

[Celebrim]

Bonedagger:

originally me "Nor could you begin a full round action on the same round you cast haste (itself a standard action)."

originally bonedagger "Again. See Start Full-Round Action on page 127 PHB under Partial Actions."

Ok, I admit that you have me there.

I knew that a full round action took two partial actions on successive rounds but for some reason didn't make the leap and realize you could start it with your haste partial. Maybe because I didn't think that you could choose to do a full round action as a partial action (such as a partial charge) unless you had no choice (as from a slow spell).

BUT BUT BUT, even though you could start it, it still wouldn't complete until your next round. And completion of the full round casting action has been my point of contention the whole time, because a spell that is cast as a full round action goes into effect not on that round - but on the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. This is true regardless of how many partial actions you have. You can't take a 'Complete Full Round' partial action on the same round as a 'Start Full Round' partial action. Notice there is no 'Complete Full Round' partial action listed? Haste doesn't speed up the spell. You still must continue the spell casting from the round you began on until just before your turn on the next round. And because of this, that archer is going to have plenty of oppurtunity to disrupt your concentration, haste or not.

This is what I've been saying all along. So please explain to me how I've got it all wrong.

originally Forestter "my understanding was that a Hasted character casting a full-round spell could NOT do it in a partial action."

originally bonedagger "Nobody said that."

My understanding was that that was exactly what you were implying, or at least that you were implying that a rull round spell could be completed in the same round if you had an extra partial action. If that wasn't what you were implying, why were you contridicting me? Or why did you even bring up haste as a solution in the first place?

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

My way of thinking was always this...
If you were casting a full roud action spell with haste on, you would have to take the extra partial action first or lose it. OR that you could use the partial action to take a partial full round action, use the extra partial next round to finish the full round spell, and then have another full round. Like old D&D, where fighters got three attacks every two rounds, 1 in round twoo, 2 in the next. I can't quite word it in the way it's floating around in my mind, but if haste esential made a spell quickened from partial, or partial from full, it would say so. Also, the description of full round spells says nothing about needing another partial action to complete, just that it takes effect on you next round.

Also, by the way it is explained in the books, any full round action is completed in your round EXCEPT full round spells, that no matter what, it took till your next round to complete. There is no explanation given, and we generally use full round spells like any other full round action, you are limited to a 5' step.

The whole hasted/full round argument is the most confusing 3E ideas have come across, especially with some of the assumptions on both sides that I don't see any basis for. I'm fairly new to these boards, so is there an old argument that I am missing?

 

[Bonedagger]

Bonedagger:

originally me "Nor could you begin a full round action on the same round you cast haste (itself a standard action)."

originally bonedagger "Again. See Start Full-Round Action on page 127 PHB under Partial Actions."

Ok, I admit that you have me there.

Don't worry. I'm not out to get you.

BUT BUT BUT, even though you could start it, it still wouldn't complete until your next round.

(It seems to be a leftover from second ed. when haste didn't affect spellcasting.)

And completion of the full round casting action has been my point of contention the whole time, because a spell that is cast as a full round action goes into effect not on that round - but on the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. This is true regardless of how many partial actions you have.

In the case of Monster S. the monsters appear as soon as the caster stops chanting. With a full-round casting time that normally happens just before his turn in the next round.

In other words: As soon as the spell is complete, monsters appear. There is no "delay".

You can't take a 'Complete Full Round' partial action on the same round as a 'Start Full Round' partial action.

No. Because such an action does not exist.

Notice there is no 'Complete Full Round' partial action listed?

Correct. Stop making up your own therms in a rule discussion.

Haste doesn't speed up the spell.

Correct. It speeds up your spellcasting. (As in: Normally you can only cast 1 standard action spell per round. Now you can cast 2 standard action spells per round)

You still must continue the spell casting from the round you began on until just before your turn on the next round. And because of this, that archer is going to have plenty of oppurtunity to disrupt your concentration, haste or not.

You can start or complete a full-round action with a partial action.... No "but".

This is what I've been saying all along. So please explain to me how I've got it all wrong.

Ok. Just did.

originally Forestter "my understanding was that a Hasted character casting a full-round spell could NOT do it in a partial action."

originally bonedagger "Nobody said that."

My understanding was that that was exactly what you were implying, or at least that you were implying that a rull round spell could be completed in the same round if you had an extra partial action. If that wasn't what you were implying, why were you contridicting me? Or why did you even bring up haste as a solution in the first place?

I never said a full-round action can be started and completed in the same partial action.



Edit: Look at it this way.

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 full round is a full-round action.

A full-round action consumes all your efforts during that round. Whether you make a full attack, load a heavy crossbow or cast a spell with a full-round casting time.

Haste allows you to take an extra partial action after (or before) a full-round action in the same round. It doesn't matter what you used that full-round action on.

A full-round action (including spellcasting) normally consumes all your time until your next turn. Haste changes this.

 

[Orwyn]

Full Round Spells and Actions

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 full round is a full-round action.

A full-round action consumes all your efforts during that round. Whether you make a full attack, load a heavy crossbow or cast a spell with a full-round casting time.

Haste allows you to take an extra partial action after (or before) a full-round action in the same round. It doesn't matter what you used that full-round action on.

A full-round action (including spellcasting) normally consumes all your time until your next turn. Haste changes this. [/B]

One flaw: Full round spells are NOT cast as a full round actions. Full round actions come into effect the very same round (with no other action spent). Sorcerers using Metamagic cast as full round actions. The full attack action is a full round action. With your assumption, I would not even need extra partial actions to finish a full round spell inside my turn.

Spells with a casting time of 1 round take a full round (not action) to come into effect. They need a partial action to begin casting, and right before your turn in the next round the effect appears.

Full round spells are similar to full round actions in this one respect: the later allows a partial action ("Start Full Round Action") and the effect completes the next round. One overlap doesn't make them the same though.

With the distinction made between full round actions and full rounds spells, how can you claim all the rules applying to the earlier apply to the later as well?

 

[Mr.Binx]

Don't forget that you can also use the Planar Binding line of spells starting with your 5th level spell slots to start binding Large Elementals to do your bidding for long periods of time. These are among the most powerful lines of creature conjuration spells you can gain as an arcane caster. Also, spell creation is the most under-used resource in most any role-playing game I have encountered. Don't settle for something you don't want. Bug your DM and make the effort to create something you want. The intelligence and drive of the player behind the caster is what makes a personal specilization such as this so powerful. Some good feats to employ are:
Augment Summoning
Improved Familiar (small elemental of your choice)
Signature Spell (Summon Monster III and other commmon elemental summoning choices)
Spell Thematics (errata'ed version)
Craft Wondrous Item At 13th level (at the cost of 50,000gp and 2,000xp) you can craft a Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals, a Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals, and a Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals. At 17th level (at the same cost) you can craft a Censer of Controlling Air Elementals
I'm sure there must be a feat somewhere that makes your spells harder to dispel. That would be a definate plus since area dispels are pretty nasty if you have a plethora of summoned creatures on the battlefield. If these resources aren't good enough for the player, you could always work with the player and tailor a balanced prestige class to employ.