Summon Monster spells underpowered for elementals?

[Elder-Basilisk]

One thing that's worth noting in the summon monster lists is that different creatures have dramatically different capabilities that are not necessarily reflected in their CRs.

For instance, the Celestial Unicorn (monster Summoning VI) may be weaker in combat than the Celestial Dire Bear but the unicorn can detect evil, neutralize poison (1/day), cure light wounds (3/day), and cure moderate wounds (1/day). Those spells are not normally within the capabilities of a wizard and are consequently a very valuable asset for a wizard (valuable enough IMHO that it's worth summoning a celestial unicorn to get them). Similarly, the Avoral Guardianal (monster summoning VII) is certainly not a match for 1d3 Celestial Dire Bears in a straight up fight but has True Seeing at will and a number of other useful spell like abilities (and the capability to Lay on Hands like a paladin). The last time I played a high level character (14th level sorceror), he summoned a guardinal on several occasions simply for the use of its True Seeing. A number of devils have animate dead at will which is a very valuable asset to any evil summoner if they are available at levels equivalent to their CR.

Consequently, I would be cautious about allowing any creature of CR X to be summoned by a summon monster spell Y. The spell like abilities of creatures can much more useful than the creature's CR would indicate (particularly if, like an Ossylith's Animate Dead ability, it bypasses the need for expensive material components).

 

[coyote6]

The spell like abilities of creatures can much more useful than the creature's CR would indicate (particularly if, like an Ossylith's Animate Dead ability, it bypasses the need for expensive material components).

The good guys can use summon monster IV to call a lantern archon, which can use continual flame at will. So, one 4th level spell buys you 6 (assuming it takes a round to say, "Cast on these items on the table") 3rd level spells, and saves 300 gp. Not too shabby. Any non-evil cleric past 7th level can basically have all the everburning torches they want.

I wonder about summoning a devil to animate dead, though; the osyluth is the one that controls the corpses, so what happens when he goes back to hell at the end of the duration? Presumably the undead would keep following whatever the last order was. Would "Do what this evil wizard here tells you to do" work?

 

[Darkness]

I wonder about summoning a devil to animate dead, though; the osyluth is the one that controls the corpses, so what happens when he goes back to hell at the end of the duration? Presumably the undead would keep following whatever the last order was. Would "Do what this evil wizard here tells you to do" work?

Probably not. Still, if she's a cleric instead of a wizard, Rebuke Undead would work well enough...

 

[Forrester]

Consequently, I would be cautious about allowing any creature of CR X to be summoned by a summon monster spell Y. The spell like abilities of creatures can much more useful than the creature's CR would indicate (particularly if, like an Ossylith's Animate Dead ability, it bypasses the need for expensive material components).

That's a very good point. Luckily, in this case the sorcerer will *always* be summoning animals (perhaps beasts) with an elemental template . . . the lack of cheaty non-combat abilities of these creatures means it's going to be more reasonable to say that a creature of CR X can be summoned by monster spell Y.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The good guys can use summon monster IV to call a lantern archon, which can use continual flame at will. So, one 4th level spell buys you 6 (assuming it takes a round to say, "Cast on these items on the table") 3rd level spells, and saves 300 gp.

Sorry. If you summon a creature, and it casts a permanent spell, the spell is exstinguished when the creature leaves. This doesn't happen if you call it, though.

The rules are in the Magic section of the Player's Handbook.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

The good guys can use summon monster IV to call a lantern archon, which can use continual flame at will. So, one 4th level spell buys you 6 (assuming it takes a round to say, "Cast on these items on the table") 3rd level spells, and saves 300 gp.

Sorry. If you summon a creature, and it casts a permanent spell, the spell is exstinguished when the creature leaves. This doesn't happen if you call it, though.

The rules are in the Magic section of the Player's Handbook.

Yep so continual flame is out, but since animate dead is instantaneous it is still in. If a wiz/sor in this case I hope you have that 2nd level control undead spell and the chain spell feat. This would be a fairly sick battlefield spell. Rouns 1-x kill lots of things, round x+1 SM6 and make the devil animate dead every round, maybe even haste him so he can animate even more. Bust out chain control undeads in a few rounds you got 100+ new units ready for battle. some big evocations may be more effective, but this would be cooler.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

One flaw: Full round spells are NOT cast as a full round actions.

"A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full-round action." (PHB p. 148. See also p. 125 same book)

With your assumption, I would not even need extra partial actions to finish a full round spell inside my turn.

Huh? So you don't think a full-round action takes a full round to complete?

Spells with a casting time of 1 round take a full round (not action) to come into effect. They need a partial action to begin casting, and right before your turn in the next round the effect appears.

Unless you're hasted. The effect comes into effect when you are done casting the spell. That's also why full round spell can be disrupted if you lose concentration before your next turn.

Look at the desciption: "A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round afteryou began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed." (PHB p. 148)

Full round spells are similar to full round actions in this one respect: the later allows a partial action ("Start Full Round Action") and the effect completes the next round. One overlap doesn't make them the same though.

They are the same. A full-round spell IS a full-round action.

With the distinction made between full round actions and full rounds spells, how can you claim all the rules applying to the earlier apply to the later as well?

Because you made a falls distinction.

 

[drowdude]

IMC we have decided to make the duration of all the various summon monster/nature's ally spells 1 minute per level.

This increases the usefulness of the spells since it provides more time for a summoned creature to provide services outside of combat.

We have also allowed casters to trade out templates as desired on summoned creatures, and have added the element+wood templates as a feature of the summon nature's ally spells.

After doing all that... the spells seemed fairly balanced...

so long as you don't memorize them and cast them via wand or scroll


Having said that, I should toss in support for the idea of shifting all of the elementals down a level and adding in a tiny elemental to the 1st level list...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I agree that the summon weak elemental spells are... weak. However, no way is a CR 11 earth elemental actually CR 11. Have you fought one of those things? They're tough! I don't think you should lower the spell level for summoning the tougher elementals. However, that's just my opinion, and YMMV in your campaign.

WotC uses an algorithm when calculating the CRs of "brute" monsters, like elementals, since it's easier than playtesting them. To see an algorithm that has gone really wrong, look at the Colossal Scorpion. Also allegedly CR 11. According to CR Greathouse's guesstimator, it is CR 16. According to the Sage's guesstimator, it is CR ~32.

hope you have that 2nd level control undead spell

Woah! What spell is that? Is it actually balanced?

Anyway, that mage better have a Teleport spell handy, for when the duration of that spell runs out.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I agree that the summon weak elemental spells are... weak. However, no way is a CR 11 earth elemental actually CR 11. Have you fought one of those things? They're tough! I don't think you should lower the spell level for summoning the tougher elementals. However, that's just my opinion, and YMMV in your campaign.

WotC uses an algorithm when calculating the CRs of "brute" monsters, like elementals, since it's easier than playtesting them. To see an algorithm that has gone really wrong, look at the Colossal Scorpion. Also allegedly CR 11. According to CR Greathouse's guesstimator, it is CR 16. According to the Sage's guesstimator, it is CR ~32.

hope you have that 2nd level control undead spell

Woah! What spell is that? Is it actually balanced?

Anyway, that mage better have a Teleport spell handy, for when the duration of that spell runs out.

No it's not balanced. It's in tome and blood. basically unintelligent undead no save under compleate control for 1 day/level. Excercise control verbally. Inteligent undead get a save works like a charm vs them. I think a bit too good for 2nd level, though I think the 7th level control undead spell in the PH is way too weak for 7th level. Personally I'm temted to let it fly because I think wizards should have the option to equal or exceed clerics in certain areas of undead, except for maybe clerics of death. I also like this just because it is the only way I know of to get true legions of undead.