Summon Monster spells underpowered for elementals?

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

There is a difference between casting the spell and then "when the spell comes into effect".

The only thing you are basing your idea on is the sentence: "and it comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell".

Everywhere else the book talks about how long the casting time is.

Ok, let's talk about casting time for a one round spell.

Normal:
One Round
Casting timeframe: init in round one to init in round two

Slowed:
Two Rounds
Casting timeframe: init in round one to init in round three (remember, in round one, you perform a start full round action, in round two, you perform a cast a spell action).

The problem with this is that the rules do not necessarily indicate that you are actually beginning your casting in either round one or round two. It can be interpreted either way and hence, someone could interpret that it starts in round one and must end in round two, or that it starts in round two and hence, cannot be disrupted in round one. Common sense, though, should dictate that it really is a two round spell when you are going at half speed, starts in round one, ends just before your init in round three, and can be disrupted at any point in time between there.

Hasted:
"Two Thirds Round"
Casting timeframe: unknown

Haste really only increases the number of full round actions by 50% (typically, see special note below). So, theoretically, you should be able to cast 3 Summon Monster spells in two full rounds.

Doing this your way:

Round 1:
Full Round Action: first Summon Monster spell
Partial Action: start second Summon Monster spell

Round 2:
Partial Action: end second Summon Monster spell
Full Round Action: start third Summon Monster spell

Round 3:
Zero Action: end third Summon Monster spell

This is basically reasonable with the exception that the first Summon Monster spell cannot be disrupted (without a held action) and it becomes a full round spell as opposed to a one round spell. Again, the difference between the two is that one can be disrupted by virtually anyone without a held action (i.e. on their next initiative) and the other cannot.

This converting of the spell type from one to another is powerful in that a spell caster can avoid disruption on the Summon Monster spell, even though the spell's casting time is designed to not allow that (otherwise, they would have made it a full round spell as opposed to a one round spell).

In the case above, I cast my Summon Monster spells in the following order: Summon Monster VII, VI, V so that the VII one cannot get disrupted. Or, worse yet, I just cast one Summon Monster spell on round one and cast a spell to boost that monster, also on round one.

To me, this gives you two choices on adjudication:

1) Do it your way and allow a spell caster to min-max Haste with Summon Monster.

2) One round spells by design go into the next round, hence, you cannot do a partial action while Hasted after using the full round action to start the one round spell without disrupting that spell. You can use the partial action before, but not after.

Special note on this: Although you probably will not believe it, start a full round action does not allow you to do a full round attack (I won't go into the details, but we've discussed this before). So, there is a precedence in the rules for certain full round actions not being able to be done depending on whether you are attempting to do it with full round actions or with partial actions with start a full round action. I realize that this is not the identical situation, but it points out that the mechanics of the round system sometimes prevents certain types of actions, that sound like they should be allowed, from occurring.

If you didn't take you sentence out of context you would also see the next sentence written with just as explicit: "You then act normally after the spell is completed".

I wasn't aware that I took the sentence out of context. I even left the sentence you quote here as part of my discussion.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

IMC we have decided to make the duration of all the various summon monster/nature's ally spells 1 minute per level.

This increases the usefulness of the spells since it provides more time for a summoned creature to provide services outside of combat.

We have also allowed casters to trade out templates as desired on summoned creatures, and have added the element+wood templates as a feature of the summon nature's ally spells.

I was thinking of something similar... Take a lesson from NWN, and increase the duration to something like 10 min/level (or 1 hr/level?). However, you could only have one SM spell active at a time, and the spell would be Dismissable.

Allow equivalent templates to be traded, and expand the list in general.

 

[drowdude]

I was thinking of something similar... Take a lesson from NWN, and increase the duration to something like 10 min/level (or 1 hr/level?). However, you could only have one SM spell active at a time, and the spell would be Dismissable.

Allow equivalent templates to be traded, and expand the list in general.

Glad you concur with my ideas

1 hour per level seems like too much... 1 hour +10 minutes per level perhaps?

 

[KarinsDad]

I was thinking of something similar... Take a lesson from NWN, and increase the duration to something like 10 min/level (or 1 hr/level?). However, you could only have one SM spell active at a time, and the spell would be Dismissable.

Allow equivalent templates to be traded, and expand the list in general.

I was thinking along the same lines.

I'm not sure about the one SM spell active at a time rule though.

I think that the reason NWN does that is due to lack of space for additional allies, not because it is necessarily unbalanced.

Making it 10 minutes per level and as many monsters as you feel like using up spells to acquire for a summoner type is really not that big of a deal considering that Dispel Magic or AntiMagic Field or various Globes of Invulnerability can limit the usefulness.

To me, this is not much different than a necromancer type with a small army of undead. In both cases, you have a group of helpers who tend to be much lower in level. In both cases, certain spell casting classes can get rid of them (turning or dispelling). And, in the case of the summoner, they are not permanent.

If you make it one hour per level, then a restriction of one creature at a time might balance it out, but I think I prefer the former option due to the increased flexibility.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

1 hour per level seems like too much... 1 hour +10 minutes per level perhaps?

I'm not sure about the one SM spell active at a time rule though...

...If you make it one hour per level, then a restriction of one creature at a time might balance it out, but I think I prefer the former option due to the increased flexibility.

Yup, the spell limit would balance out the extra duration. So, I was thinking either...

1. 10 min/lvl with no limit.
or
2. 1 hr/lvl but only one spell active at a time.

Note that the longer duration would be limited by one spell at a time, not one creature. You could use a higher level to summon a pack of celestial dogs, or a flock of dire hawks.

It's a shame you can't Persistant Spell a Summoning Spell.

 

[drowdude]

It's a shame you can't Persistant Spell a Summoning Spell.

Yeah... but with your rules implemented Extend Spell is usually going to be about as effective.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

Ok. My turn.


A round = 6 sec (Time it takes to cast a fullround spell. This is important. Even when you cast a full-round spell you are able to act normally in your next turn. 6 sec. later)

A standard action take at least as long time as a move-equalent action since you don't have time to make two standard actions in a round. (let us say 3 sec. E.g. The time it takes to physically aid another)

You are allowed to take two standard actions in a round when you are hasted.

("As a general rule, you can do as much with a partial action as you could with a standard action minus a move." PHB. p 127)

2 Standard actions = 6 sec. (Or more)

[Edit: And even then I say that you are only allowed to make a 5 foot move if you cast a full-round spell this way.]



That is the problem with a turnbased game. In real life everything fluidly happens at the same time. In a turnbased game you have to place a limit to when a round ends. The tricky part is that everybody has to wait until it becomes their turn. In theory if your action takes only 5,9 sec. nobody normally has time to react (Exceptions being AoO and a ready action), but if your action takes 6,1 sec. everybody has time to react.

Special note on this: Although you probably will not believe it, start a full round action does not allow you to do a full round attack (I won't go into the details, but we've discussed this before). So, there is a precedence in the rules for certain full round actions not being able to be done depending on whether you are attempting to do it with full round actions or with partial actions with start a full round action. I realize that this is not the identical situation, but it points out that the mechanics of the round system sometimes prevents certain types of actions, that sound like they should be allowed, from occurring.

It's not a question of belief for me. You cannot devide a full attack action over two rounds because a full-attack is not a miscellaneous action. Neither is spellcasting by the way (Except a quickened spell).

I wasn't aware that I took the sentence out of context. I even left the sentence you quote here as part of my discussion.

You take the first sentence and claim that is a explicit rule and then ignore the following sentence that causes a contrast even if that sentence is just as justified being called a "rule".

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

Ok. You want to rationalize beyond the rules.

Not necessarily. What interpretation did I use that did not follow the rules as well? Just because I threw in a section on balance does not mean that I throw out rules in order to achieve balance (unless house ruling).

A round = 6 sec (Time it takes to cast a fullround spell. This is important. Even when you cast a full-round spell you are able to act normally in your next turn. 6 sec. later)

A standard action take at least as long time as a move-equalent action since you don't have time to make two standard actions in a round. (let us say 3 sec. E.g. The time it takes to physically aid another)

You are allowed to take two standard actions in a round when you are hasted.

This is blatantly false.

When hasted, you can perform a standard action and a partial action in a single round. Or, you can perform a full round action and a partial action in a single round. You cannot perform two standard actions in a single round when Hasted. Period.

You can generally perform a standard action and "a standard action minus a move", but that is not the same as two standard actions.

Standard Actions include the Move or Move Equivalent Action and are not equal to a Partial Action.

2 Standard actions = 6 sec. (Or more)

No, 2 standard actions = 12 seconds. Since you can typically do the equivalent to a standard action with a start a full round action using a partial action in two different rounds, Haste virtually allows the equivalent of 3 standard actions in 12 seconds or 2 rounds.

Or, when Hasted, Standard Action = 4 seconds. However, that still does not mean that you can squeeze a one round spell into the first 4 seconds of round one using a full round action and not have it extend over a round, giving opponents a chance to disrupt it.

That is the problem with a turnbased game. In real life everything fluidly happens at the same time. In a turnbased game you have to place a limit to when a round ends. The tricky part is that everybody has to wait until it becomes their turn. In theory if your action takes only 5,9 sec. nobody normally has time to react (Exceptions being AoO and a ready action), but if your action takes 6,1 sec. everybody has time to react.

Agreed.


Well, we are getting nowhere here. You are interchanging definitions such as standard action for partial action or full round spell for one round spell. There are differences that you just cannot drop on the floor.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

No, 2 standard actions = 12 seconds.

No. Normally 2 standard actions + 2 move-equalent actions = 12 sec. (I can now see why you don't seem to understand what it is I am saying)



But you are right about that this doesn't seem to be leading anywhere.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

No. Normally 2 standard actions + 2 move-equalent actions = 12 sec. (I can now see why you don't seem to understand what it is I am saying)

Nope, not quite... A Partial Action + Movement = Standard Action = 6 seconds.

From the SRD:

Action Types

Not an Action: Some activities are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else.

Free Action: A combatant can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what a combatant can really do for free.

Partial Action: As a general rule, a combatant can do as much with a partial action as a combatant could with a standard action minus a move. Typically, a combatant may take a 5-foot step as part of a partial action.

Move-Equivalent Action: Move-equivalent actions take the place of movement in a standard action or take the place of an entire partial action. The combatant can normally also take a 5 foot step.

Standard Action: A standard action allows a combatant to do something and move a combatant's indicated speed during a combat round. A combatant can move before or after performing the activity of the action.

Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all a combatant's effort during a round. The only movement a combatant can take during a full- round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. A combatant can also perform free actions. Some full-round actions do not allow a 5-foot step.

[Edited because of a stupid brain-fart.]