Summon Monster spells underpowered for elementals?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Summon Nature's Ally... too weak?

I like playing druids, but my summoned animals don't seem that strong.

In a lot of cases, the same creature is available under Summon Monster, but in fiendish or other variety.

On the other hand, I do get the advantage against Magic Circle against Evil (it keeps away summoned outsiders and elementals, AFAIK). And the fiendish/celestial bonuses don't seem that big of a deal.

The problem is more likely my strategies. Has anyone found particularly useful creatures to summon?

(I've tried weasels, but they have trouble hitting stuff.)

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

"A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full-round action." (PHB p. 148. See also p. 125 same book)
[/B]

No doubt about it. This is correct. However, even though it is a full round action, it does NOT mean that you can remove the spell casting rules for it.

"A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of the character's turn in the round after the character began casting the spell."

Other full round actions do NOT occur just before the beginning of the character's turn in the round after the character began the full round action.

This is a special rule concerning spells that take 1 full round to cast.


As for Haste, it is debatable as to how it works with spells that take 1 full round to cast since there are no rules for it.

However, LITERALLY, all spells that takes 1 full round to cast come into effect just before the beginning of the character's turn in the round after the character began casting the spell.

There are no rules in the book that imply that just because you are hasted that you can ignore this rule.

There are two ways that Hasted partial actions can work with this rule without breaking it:

1) Partial Action followed by One Round Spell.
2) One Round Spell followed by Partial Action in next round, just before the character's actual turn

Not all DMs will allow the second option since it will give them 2 partial actions and a standard action in the second round.

Feel free to disagree, but you will need some compelling rules to allow you to break the one round spell casting rule just because you are Hasted.

 

[LokiDR]

Hey (Psi)SeveredHead, try the thread on Lantern Archons, http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19170

It is available by Monster Summoning IV, I think.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

However, LITERALLY, all spells that takes 1 full round to cast come into effect just before the beginning of the character's turn in the round after the character began casting the spell.

There are no rules in the book that imply that just because you are hasted that you can ignore this rule.

The book doesn't describe the situation for every spell that alters reality.

It describes (Literally) that the spell takes effect (monsters appear) just as soon as the spellcasting is done (No waiting). The speed of the spellcasting depends on how much "action" you use on it (If you only have partial actions it will take 2 rounds to cast a full-round spell.)

Edit: According to your definition of the rules the spell takes effect the round after you started casting it.... Even if it takes two rounds to cast it.


So if you can put more than a full-round action into your turn, you can complete the spell faster (You can start or complete a full-round action with a partial action).



BTW. If you have to take it that literally:

You can't act before the spell is completed and it is not completed before the effect takes place.

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

The book doesn't describe the situation for every spell that alters reality.

Haste does not alter reality, nor the rules.

It merely gives you an extra partial action in the round (in addition to its other benefits). It doesn't change AoO rules, spell casting rules, etc.

It describes (Literally) that the spell takes effect (monsters appear) just as soon as the spellcasting is done (No waiting). The speed of the spellcasting depends on how much "action" you use on it (If you only have partial actions it will take 2 rounds to cast a full-round spell.)

Nope. Otherwise, your full round action of casting the spell would be done in round one and would not overlap into round two. Casting a one round spell is an EXCEPTION to the normal full round action rules.

Edit: According to your definition of the rules the spell takes effect the round after you started casting it.... Even if it takes two rounds to cast it.

Ah, but there is an explicit rule in the book that allows you to bypass that rule.

"Unless doing so is a full-round action, in which case a combatant could start a full-round action and then finish it the next round with a cast a spell action. Spells that take longer than 1 full round to cast take twice as long to cast."

This states (this is a note on the chart concerning casting a spell as a partial action) that this is an exception to the exception.

There is no explicit rule that allows what you want to allow.

So if you can put more than a full-round action into your turn, you can complete the spell faster (You can start or complete a full-round action with a partial action).

Yes, you can start a full round action with a partial action. And, you can finish a full round action doing that with a partial action from your next round.

"The start full-round action partial action lets a combatant start undertaking a miscellaneous full-round action, which the combatant can complete on the following round (even with a partial action). This option is normally used when a combatant has been magically slowed or is suffering some other condition that restricts the combatant from taking full round actions."

But, there is no rule that says that you can decrease the 1 FULL round required to cast the spell. Remember, there are three definitions of the word round. Your entire set of actions for the turn. The time between your inits. A number to indicate which round it is.


The reason for this is that the designers wanted summon spells to overlap an entire full round so that every opponent could get a chance to disrupt it. That is why it overlaps in a normal round. They is why it overlaps in a Start a Full Round Action round that goes from one round to the next (e.g. Slowed).

There is nothing in the rules to indicate that Haste would be an exception to this.


I've shown you explicit rules that force you to take up an entire round (i.e. init to init) via my interpretation. Please show me explicit rules per your interpretation that allows the full round action rules to override the "actually takes one full round" rules of spell casting a one round spell.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

Haste does not alter reality, nor the rules.

It speed up time for you. I call that to alter reality (Alteration magic). What do you call it?

*snip*
There is no explicit rule that allows what you want to allow.

See below.

Yes, you can start a full round action with a partial action. And, you can finish a full round action doing that with a partial action from your next round.

"The start full-round action partial action lets a combatant start undertaking a miscellaneous full-round action, which the combatant can complete on the following round (even with a partial action). This option is normally used when a combatant has been magically slowed or is suffering some other condition that restricts the combatant from taking full round actions."

But, there is no rule that says that you can decrease the 1 FULL round required to cast the spell.

(Notice the word "normally". A situation where somebody only has a partial action is more normal than a hasted spellcaster casting a full-round spell)

[You cannot decrease a round- See below.. But for now

Yes there is. "You can start or complete a full-round action with a partial action".

Remember, there are three definitions of the word round. Your entire set of actions for the turn. The time between your inits. A number to indicate which round it is.

No. There is only one definition of "a round": When it becomes your turn you have a round (about 6 seconds) to do the number of actions you are allowed to.

The reason for this is that the designers wanted summon spells to overlap an entire full round so that every opponent could get a chance to disrupt it.

I'm not so sure about that.

You are spending time casting one spell when you could be casting two (I find that the balance have been maintained).

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

“But, there is no rule that says that you can decrease the 1 FULL round required to cast the spell.”

Yes there is. "You can start or complete a full-round action with a partial action".

Yes, you can start or finish the action. But, that does not invalidate my statement.

You still need the second half of the partial action. It still takes a full round, a partial action in round one, a partial action in round two. Hence, a full round, but not a full round action. There is a distinct difference between the two.

No. There is only one definition of "a round": When it becomes your turn you have a round (about 6 seconds) to do the number of actions you are allowed to.

Are you sure?

PHB page 121

“In the same way, a round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative number (initiative count) in the next round.”

Definitions #3 and #2 I mentioned earlier.

“When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions.”

Definition #1 (here, the word round is synonymous with the normal definition of the word turn).

You are spending time casting one spell when you could be casting two (I find that the balance have been maintained).

You can rule that for your campaign. But, there are no rules (other than rule 0) that supports that ruling.

We have the rules for a full round action.

We have the exception rule that spells that takes one round to cast do not follow the normal full round action rule, but rather do not occur until just before the initiative in the next round.

We have the exception to the exception rule that if this is done with a partial action in round one, it will complete within the partial action of round two.

But, we do not have a rule that you can use a full round action to somehow squeeze the full round required for a one round spell into the first action when Hasted. That is something that you made up and is not supported by the rules.

If you believe it to be the case, support it with rules from the book as opposed to just saying that is the way it is.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

But, that does not invalidate my statement.

Casting a full-round spell is a Full-round action type. You can complete it with a partial action.

The words: "It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell." are not to be taken literally - It's a description of what is normally. (Kinda proved that - But for your argument. See below)

BTW. They draw attention to (In parentheses) that Haste is one of the exceptions to what they describe later on in the section about partial actions.... In your description of the "explicit rule".


Note: Words that are to be taken literally are words like "typically", "usually", "such as" and "normally".

Are you sure?

PHB page 121

“In the same way, a round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative number (initiative count) in the next round.”

*snip*

About rounds: The section of text you have taken your quote from could have been replaced with the simple sentence "The duration of a round is relative".

Yes. I am sure.

We have the exception to the exception rule that if this is done with a partial action in round one, it will complete within the partial action of round two.

It only talks about starting and completing the action. It doesn't talk about when the spell comes into effect.

(It doesn't say anything about when the monsters appear.)

No exception.

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

Casting a full-round spell is a Full-round action type. You can complete it with a partial action.

Except that casting a one round spell is not casting a full round spell.

There is a difference between the two. A Sorcerer’s metamagiced spell is a full round spell.

You are attempting to allow a one round spell to become a full round spell, but where in the rules does it allow that?

I’ve asked this question multiple times, but you keep sidestepping it. My assumption is that you will sidestep if you respond again.

About rounds: The section of text you have taken your quote from could have been replaced with the simple sentence "The duration of a round is relative".

And, so how is it that different relative durations does not make the definition of a round relative? It’s all about how you use it.

It only talks about starting and completing the action. It doesn't talk about when the spell comes into effect.

(It doesn't say anything about when the monsters appear.)

No exception.

Exactly what does the word “completion” mean to you?

“A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full round action, and it comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.”

"Unless doing so is a full-round action, in which case a combatant could start a full-round action and then finish it the next round with a cast a spell action. Spells that take longer than 1 full round to cast take twice as long to cast."

Does finish and completed sound different to you? Evidently not since you used the word “completing” in your sentence above when referring to the exception case where the actual word is “finish”.

Again, I ask you for a rule that supports your position. Instead, you keep arguing that the words in the book do not state what they state and I have to pull out full quotes to illustrate differently. In fact, even when I pull out a quote such as the two different meanings of the word round, you dismiss it as “There is only one definition of "a round": “ and “Yes. I am sure.”.

You appear to be arguing, just to argue. You have yet to show a rule that allows a one round spell to be stuff into a full round action without it spanning two actual rounds.

Until you can do that, you are merely making up house rules and ignoring what is in the book like the multiple definitions of the word round.


I await your response where yet again you do not prove your point with rules.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

Exactly what does the word “completion” mean to you?

“A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full round action, and it comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.”

"Unless doing so is a full-round action, in which case a combatant could start a full-round action and then finish it the next round with a cast a spell action. Spells that take longer than 1 full round to cast take twice as long to cast."

There is a difference between casting the spell and then "when the spell comes into effect".

The only thing you are basing your idea on is the sentence: "and it comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell".

Everywhere else the book talks about how long the casting time is.

If you didn't take you sentence out of context you would also see the next sentence written with just as explicit: "You then act normally after the spell is completed". So just as much as it is a rule that the spell effect appears the round after you started casting it is also a rule that that is when the spell is completed.

The rules in Partial Actions only talk about the casting time.


Now. The spell effect appears when the casting of the spell is done. The casting time is depending on if you're slowed or hasted, because a full-round spell is a full-round action and should be threated as such.