Summon Monster spells underpowered for elementals?

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Round Spells and Actions

Nope, not quite... A Partial Action + Movement = Standard Action = 12 seconds.

From the SRD:

From PHB p. 121.

"Move- equivalent actions takes the place of movement in a standard action."

"A standard action allows you to do something and move your speed during a combat round. You can move before or after performing this activity of the action. Doing this action takes the same time as casting a 1-action spell in the therms of what else you can do in the round." (Continueing with examples).

"THE COMBAT ROUND: Each round represent about 6 seconds in the game world."

I'm afraid you are wrong.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Oops... 12 seconds was a mistype... I meant 6 seconds, but was thinking backwards. I'll fix that.

Either way, what you suggested...

Normally 2 standard actions + 2 move-equalent actions = 12 sec.

Is still wrong.

2 standard action + 2 MEAs = 18 seconds. One round for each of the standard actions, and a half round for each of the MEAs.

 

[Bonedagger]

Oops... 12 seconds was a mistype... I meant 6 seconds, but was thinking backwards. I'll fix that.

Either way, what you suggested...



Is still wrong.

2 standard action + 2 MEAs = 18 seconds. One round for each of the standard actions, and a half round for each of the MEAs.

The practically definition is right.

But you are right about it not being literally correct. (But it matters not in the above discussion. (KarinsDad claiming that 2 standard actions = 12 sec.))


So just for you (): 2 move-equivalent actions + 2 actions taken as a standard action minus the move (e.g. cast a 1-action spell - and: "you can move before or after performing the activity of the action" (PHB p. 121)).= 12 sec.

 

[KarinsDad]

But you are right about it not being literally correct. (But it matters not in the above discussion. (KarinsDad claiming that 2 standard actions = 12 sec.))

Ok, just reading through those posts was confusing. However, my claim was not a claim, but a fact:

Round = 6 seconds
Round = Standard Action OR
Round = Full Round Action

(2 Standard Actions = 2 Rounds = 12 seconds)

Standard Action = Action (of Standard Action) + Move OR
Standard Action = Action (of Standard Action) + Move Equivalent

Partial Action = Action of Standard Action OR
Partial Action = Move OR
Partial Action = Move Equivalent


It would have been nice if they said:

Standard Action = Partial Action + Move OR
Standard Action = Partial Action + Move Equivalent

but they didn't (even though a lot of people think of them this way).

In any case, you cannot use the phrase Standard Action to mean either Partial Action or Standard Action - Move Equivalent. If you do, people will not understand what you are talking about. And, you still cannot do two Standard Actions in a single round when Hasted. If you do one Standard Action while Hasted, you only have a Partial Action left.

Ok, time for dinner and to hold off on more silly discussions.

 

[Bonedagger]

Round = 6 seconds
Round = Standard Action OR
Round = Full Round Action

Agree. But remember that the movement in the standard action is called "a move-equivalent action". So technically you could call it an action within an action.

(Which is actually making it more confusing than it need to be. See text in PHB p. 121: It describes that a standard action consist of an action and a movement before or after the action. And that that movement is called a move-equivalent action)

(2 Standard Actions = 2 Rounds = 12 seconds)

Standard Action = Action (of Standard Action) + Move OR
Standard Action = Action (of Standard Action) + Move Equivalent

"Move- equivalent actions takes the place of movement in a standard action." (PHB p. 121)

So in a standard action: Move = Move equivalent action

Partial Action = Action of Standard Action OR
Partial Action = Move OR
Partial Action = Move Equivalent

See above

Actually it would be ok if you altered Move to Miscellaneous Move-equivalent Action. (Table 8-4. PHB)

It would have been nice if they said:

Standard Action = Partial Action + Move OR
Standard Action = Partial Action + Move Equivalent

but they didn't (even though a lot of people think of them this way).

I would prefere if they had just keept the move-equivalent action and the standard action seperated.

In any case, you cannot use the phrase Standard Action to mean either Partial Action or Standard Action - Move Equivalent. If you do, people will not understand what you are talking about. And, you still cannot do two Standard Actions in a single round when Hasted. If you do one Standard Action while Hasted, you only have a Partial Action left.

Well yes. I shouldn't had called the "Standard Action Action" for a Standard Action. But I did warn that I was rationalising beyond the rules.


Let me translate my above post then:
Standard + Partial <=>
(Move + Action) + (Move + Action) - Move

Edit: And 2 move = 6 sec.

So basically (Rationalizing): When you are hasted you can squees about 9 sec. of realtime activity into 6 seconds.

Without haste: A full-round spell takes 6 realtime sec. to cast. And then the monsters appear (Still within the 6 sec.) On the 7th Sec. a new turn has begun and new actions can freely be chosen.


My view on Summoning and Haste still stands.

Ok, time for dinner and to hold off on more silly discussions.

Isn't it the sillyness that makes it fun?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hasn't this been answered in the Player's Handbook FAQ?
I'm quite sure it is.

 

[Bonedagger]

Hasn't this been answered in the Player's Handbook FAQ?
I'm quite sure it is.

I think the Sage has talked about it, if that is what you mean. (Dunno if his FAQ = PHB FAQ)

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I think part of the reason elementals are underpowered is because of their very nature. When you summon an elemental you know exactly what you are going to get.

Need to kill a troll? Summon a fire elemental. Need to attack some annoying bird spy then summon an air elemental.

So elementals so obviously lend themselves to letting everyone know what they are and are not good for that they made the ones you summon a bit smaller than other summoned creatures.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm not sure if I can agree.
That's part of the flexibility of the Summon Monster spell. You can choose a creature that is useful for the situation.

For instance, if you fight an invisible hasted flying sorcerer, summon fiendish dire bats.

There's a big problem with alignment, though, since no caster (not even true neutral) can get any creature.