Summon Monster

[KarinsDad]

I recently started playing in a 20th level game and have cast some types of summoning spells.

Although Summon Elemental Monolith combined with Sonorous Hum appears to work well, many other high level spells I have used appear to be sub-optimal at high level.

For example, Summon Monster IX for a Leonal and Heavenly Host for some low level Archons were basically a waste of 9th level spells.


Does anyone have any suggestions for Summon spells at high level? Is there good combinations, possibly using higher level Summon spells to summon multiple lower level creatures that are more effective in high level combat?

The only powerful creatures I see are the Celestial Roc and the Elder Elementals (and the 8th level Greater Elementals / Celestial Triceratops), but they all have such low Will saves that I could see them being Dominated and turned against the party by a spell caster.

 

[Thanee]

Elder Elementals seem to be alright. Of course they are not on par with opponents you meet, but they can be fine as a means to attack the right foes or keep some minions occupied while you concentrate on the main foe.

Bye
Thanee

 

[frankthedm]

The only powerful creatures I see are the Celestial Roc and the Elder Elementals (and the 8th level Greater Elementals / Celestial Triceratops), but they all have such low Will saves that I could see them being Dominated and turned against the party by a spell caster.

Uhm, ask your DM how he views that subject... Dominate might not be as effective against a summon as you fear. Being 'summoned' is worse than being under a compulsion. You would kill your own family at the conjurer's command and he would not even need to override your will like is required for a Dominated victim to commit such an atrocity.

I feel telling a Dominated summoned creature to do anything but follow it's summoner's commands falls under "against its nature".

Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus.

 

[Nail]

Once my summoning Clr got to 9th level spells, his summoning strategy changed completely Against a "Big Bad", monoliths were the way to go. Against several weaker opponents, I'd use multiple summoned creatures that were chosen to confine, rather than kill --> i.e. high hp creatures that flank or occupy strategic ground.

IIRC, Huge Air Elementals (SM VII) were often the best, because of maneuverability and the Whirlwind ability.

As for domination: A Non-issue. It's a dismissable spell, so at best the enemy gets you to use your next action to dismiss. The Summoned Monsters would never get a round to attack you or yours.

 

[KarinsDad]

As for domination: A Non-issue. It's a dismissable spell, so at best the enemy gets you to use your next action to dismiss. The Summoned Monsters would never get a round to attack you or yours.

I do not understand this. Dominate Monster is not a dismissable spell (since Dominate Person is not a dismissable spell). Even if it were dismissable, the caster of Dominate dismisses it, not the normal controller of the Summoned Creatures.

So, of course he could take over your Summoned Creatures. Even with Frank's analysis above, Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell. That means a minimum of DC 23, more likely a DC of 27+ for most NPCs. With a Will save of +10 for most of these creatures, that's a 20% chance of making the first save and a 30% chance of making the second (+2) one. Or, overall a 56% chance of failing the saves.

Plus, your Summoned Creatures act before you do on your initiative count. So if one is Dominated on an enemy caster's turn, it will get to act before you can attempt to Dispel the Dominate.

Not a huge chance of success, but a solid one nonetheless.

 

[mvincent]

Does anyone have any suggestions for Summon spells at high level?

A Colossal Fiendish monstrous spider or multiple Colossal Fiendish monstrous centipedes can work well for battlefield control. They can effectively act as giant walls, and they threaten a very large area.

I could see them being Dominated and turned against the party by a spell caster.

Any protection from <alignment> spell should fix that. It's usually optimal to have at least one person in your party have a circle of protection <alignment> going during any crawl anyways... they would just need to get near the summoned creature to cancel out domination.

 

[Kwitchit]

I do not understand this. Dominate Monster is not a dismissable spell (since Dominate Person is not a dismissable spell). Even if it were dismissable, the caster of Dominate dismisses it, not the normal controller of the Summoned Creatures.

So, of course he could take over your Summoned Creatures. Even with Frank's analysis above, Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell. That means a minimum of DC 23, more likely a DC of 27+ for most NPCs. With a Will save of +10 for most of these creatures, that's a 20% chance of making the first save and a 30% chance of making the second (+2) one. Or, overall a 56% chance of failing the saves.

Plus, your Summoned Creatures act before you do on your initiative count. So if one is Dominated on an enemy caster's turn, it will get to act before you can attempt to Dispel the Dominate.

Not a huge chance of success, but a solid one nonetheless.

He means that if the enemy Dominates your Summoned monsters, you can dismiss the Summoning- thus getting rid of the monsters before they can attack you.

The question now is: can you dismiss the monsters before they act on your turn? If you can, then as Nail says Dominate is a non-issue, it just makes you waste a Summon spell and a standard action to dismiss it. If you can't, then it's still not much of an issue. The worst that can happen (if you placed the monster sensibly) is that it makes one attack on the meatshield then goes *poof* and vanishes.

Note on Sensible Monster Placement: It's foolish to summon a monster anywhere other than in front of the party (either in front of, next to, or behind the enemy). If you decide there's a risk of the monster being Dominated, place it where it has to move to reach a party member, to prevent a Full Attack.

And on the "can they be dominated" issue: A Dominate spell might well work. However, a Caster Level Check would ensue when the two casters gave conflicting commands. Also, attacking the party would be an "action against the monster's nature", and force another save.

 

[Infiniti2000]

By default, as KD says, the summoned creatures go before you (though during normal actions, a caster could alter that by command the creature to delay until after he goes--e.g. buffing him up).

The other issue with domination is that you need to be able to recognize that it was a domination AND that it was successful. You can tell the first easily enough with a spellcraft check, but the second?

Anyway, domination is largely irrelevant because who's gonna attempt to dominate such monsters instead of the level 20 archer in the party? No, really?

The biggest benefit of the summon spells are that they are situational. Their power is in their flexibility to adjust to different situations. You can prepare meteor swarm but that may be useless in some situations. Summon Monster IX will almost always be at least partially useful. If not to damage someone, then to take a beating for you. One great use I had for it was to put up a number of chumps around ALLIES when said allies were confused. No more would the ally confusedly attack another ally, instead he beat up a single summoned monster. Just command those monsters to hang around the ally.

Right, Gansk?

 

[Storm Raven]

Plus, your Summoned Creatures act before you do on your initiative count. So if one is Dominated on an enemy caster's turn, it will get to act before you can attempt to Dispel the Dominate.

They do? I see that they act on your turn, but I don't see where they act before you on your turn. Besides, if the enemy caster is going to use a dominate monster, I'd rather they do it on something I can dismiss at will on my action rather than the party fighter.

 

[KarinsDad]

They do? I see that they act on your turn, but I don't see where they act before you on your turn.

It's a combination of two rules.

A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

The problem here is that of having two creatures with the exact same initiative. That is hard to adjudicate. So, the rules here seem to imply that the summoned creature acts first (and that resolves adjudication issues), however, as I2K pointed out, the caster can always command the creature to Delay.