Summon Monster

[Brother MacLaren]

For example, Summon Monster IX for a Leonal and Heavenly Host for some low level Archons were basically a waste of 9th level spells.

Why was the Leonal a waste? For melee combat, possibly, but it has a great number of useful abilities. I can imagine summoning one for a combat to support with healing, battlefield control (wall of force), and defense (the protective aura). I suppose its usefulness depends on how many other casters you have in the party. And I don't know what Heavenly Host does, but in general a swarm of lantern archons (especially with Haste and Inspire Courage) is a great way of whittling down things with exotic DR, high SR and AC, and various elemental resistances.

 

[Storm Raven]

The problem here is that of having two creatures with the exact same initiative. That is hard to adjudicate. So, the rules here seem to imply that the summoned creature acts first (and that resolves adjudication issues), however, as I2K pointed out, the caster can always command the creature to Delay.

I don't see how the conclusion you reach is driven by those two rules. If you were busy casting a full round spell, that would be one thing, but in subsequent rounds (and we are talking about subsequent rounds, because otherwise we would not be dealing with an interfereing dominate monster) I see no rule that dictates that the summoned creature goes first. You act on the same initiative count. Who goes first within that initative count is undefined, and I would say, up to the caster.

 

[Pielorinho]

Anyway, domination is largely irrelevant because who's gonna attempt to dominate such monsters instead of the level 20 archer in the party? No, really?

That's actually a pretty good point. I'd prefer an enemy spellcaster use her turn to cast a ninth-level spell to have a chance at countering my own ninth-level spell than to use her turn to take over the party's barbarian or to cast meteor swarm at me or to cast shapechange. That would be a suboptimal use of the ninth-level spellslot.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

Who goes first within that initative count is undefined, and I would say, up to the caster.

"Acts immediately" is what implies the summoned creature acts first. However, like said earlier, a Delay command can override that.

Otherwise, one would have to follow the standard rule:

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

This can be done.

However, the implication comes from the Summon Monster spell itself:

If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

So sure, the caster could tell the monster to Delay if the caster can communicate with it. Otherwise, either it goes first due to the "act immediately" phrase or it goes either before or after the caster based on the standard same initiative count rule.

But, there are no simultaneous initiatives in the game system.


And if the caster cannot communicate with the creature, he cannot just decide each round whether he goes first or the creature. None of the rules allows for this.

 

[KarinsDad]

Anyway, domination is largely irrelevant because who's gonna attempt to dominate such monsters instead of the level 20 archer in the party? No, really?

An enemy spellcaster familiar with the Summon Monster spell and with a high Spell Craft / proper Knowledge skills would probably know that (specific) summoned creatures tend to have low will saves.

With an enemy Archer, he would be guessing. Sure, combatant types often have low Will saves, but if they are with spell casters (or are partial spell casters themselves), there are a lot of ways (e.g. Mind Blank, or PrCs, or magical defenses, etc.) where they might be hard to Dominate.


A summoned creature would not have defenses up right away when summoned in and a spell caster should know this.

 

[Infiniti2000]

A summoned creature would not have defenses up right away when summoned in and a spell caster should know this.

Sure, but consider who's the bigger threat? I'm not saying it's completely useless to dominate the summoned monsters, just that I think it has to be one of the worst possible tactical decisions possible. I'd much rather greater dispel the fighter and then quicken dominate person him. (or vice versa with a rod)

 

[KarinsDad]

Sure, but consider who's the bigger threat? I'm not saying it's completely useless to dominate the summoned monsters, just that I think it has to be one of the worst possible tactical decisions possible.

Worst possible???

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Sending the Elder Fire Elemental back at the Wizard who spent an entire round summoning it would seem like a good choice in many circumstances. It almost forces the Wizard to waste another round dismissing the Elemental or finding some other way to handle the situation.

Especially in a situation where the NPCs outnumber the PCs (a situation where PCs might often summon creatures to even the odds), having the NPCs outnumber the PCs by even more seems like a good strategy. Numbers count in DND since they equate to Total Actions per Round per side.

And, the only reason to Dominate the creature as opposed to the party Fighter is that the Fighter might be well protected versus spells whereas the creature is not (and the NPC spell caster should know this as a strong possibility). Even a Greater Dispel followed by Quickened Dominate Person might be totally worthless before the Dominate is even cast (e.g. in a case where Mind Blank is a spell up that is not dispelled). Having to go through layers of defenses is often difficult.

Greater Dispel versus a Fighter with a Ring of Spell Turning could really ruin the NPC caster's day. He does not have to worry about such things if he targets the Summoned Creature.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Worst possible???

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yes, we will. A CR 11 summoned creature is not even in the same ball park compared to the 20th-level fighter. A simple magic circle would keep out the elder elemental, even if its attacks aren't just easily ignored at that level. As an NPC, I would not even bother with such summoned creatures. I would ignore them in favor of the 20th level wizard, cleric, or whatever I am facing.

Of course, everything is situational, so perhaps the summon creature is a hindrance to a crucial aspect of my evil plan. That aside, though, in general the summoned creature is on the bottom of the totem pole and I can think of MANY MANY other actions other than trying to dominate a CR11 monster to work for me (and if it fails, my magic circle is lost). Except for possibly a very specific situation (which does not come to mind) I maintain that dominating a summoned monster is one of the worst possible actions to take, when compared to possible alternatives like time stop, etc.

 

[Storm Raven]

"Acts immediately" is what implies the summoned creature acts first.

No, it implies that it acts on the turn in which it is summoned. After that, there is no rule concerning when, within your initiative count, the summoned creature acts.

But, there are no simultaneous initiatives in the game system.

Except of course, for those defined in the rules. Like with the summon monster spell which states that the summoned creatures act on your initiative.

Nothing in any of the rules you have cited gives any indication that the 'default" is for summoned creatures to go first.

 

[Nail]

Worst possible???

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I *generally* agree that Dominating the summoned monster is a bad tactic, given other spells, magic items, and other actions. Can we all agree that there are lots of "corner cases" where Domination *might occasionally* be a reasonable tactic?

As for my comment about "dismissing the SM": Generally my PC could communicate with the SM (Speak Celestial was a solid investment, Auran was also useful). Given that communication I sometimes would have the SM's turn immediately after my own. I hadn't thought of this at the time, but such an arrangement would be a nearly fool-proof defence against dominated summoned monsters.

KD: Basically, I don't think dominated SMs are an issue to be concerned about. YMMV