summoning problem- need help

[Gaiden]

At the risk of being insulting, Duh. That's why I'm the DM. Arbitrating what "should" and "should not" happen in my game is an important part of my job.

No insult taken. But I think you may have missed my point. The reason for the quotes was to suggest that they are not a neutral arbiter. Rather, he/she is introducing his own variant of the core rules - a.k.a. a house rule - that has more to do with what he thinks is appropriate due to his own personal preferences that have no foundation in the rules or by logic.

It is completely arbitrary to rule that Gods don't want there angels to be fax machines in that doing so is pure DM whim. The reason for this, is that it is just as plausable to rule that a God was happy to aid his followers in communicating information to the larger body of his church. After all, if one of his chosen representatives thinks that the message warrants such forms of communication, might that not actually be the case. Even if it wasn't, then I would expect said God to pay much more close attention to ALL of the cleric's spell casting and not grant spells when used for similar apparently logical tasks. Example - God does not want to pester his divine agents when the cleric can't see. So summoning a lantern archon for a continual flame would not be permitted. After all, if the cleric thought to bring a torch he would not have that problem. Moreover, that is the express reason for granting the 0th level spell - light. As a player, I would not want to play with said DM. He is taking control from my player - and unwarranted control at that.

The use of Tw/oE from the Lantern archon is an often overlooked ability. Meaning that players and DMs alike become accustomed to the summon functioning a certain way. Now that someone innovatively figures out a new way means that the said summon spell gains an increase in its utility. All of a sudden, now it can't be used like that. Nope, not buying it. Saying that the God doesn't permit this is just a cheap way of getting out of limiting the function of a spell to suit the DM's taste on balance - which is expressly against the characters.

Finally, a wizard, which has no ties to a church surely would not be limited to this tactic as he could care less, if the lantern archon does not like being used as a messenger. Therefore, this is in fact unbalancing.

 

[Pielorinho]

It is completely arbitrary to rule that Gods don't want there angels to be fax machines in that doing so is pure DM whim.

Again, much of my world is pure DM whim. The fact that all magic is based on communication with spirits; the existence of portals to the spirit world in high places like chimneys or mountaintops; the existence of a cult dedicated to bringing back the old noble order -- all of these are pure DM whim. The dislike of the Gods for treating their servants like fax machines is just one more whim amongst many. I'd hate to play with a whim-free DM.

And honestly, I don't think this tactic is as innovative as you think it is. I've seen it on this board for years, I've had players discuss it many times, I've seen it used in my game. It's mildly clever, but nothing to write home about.

On the other hand, a world in which the tactic is commonplace has significant changes. No king would trust a vital message to a land-based courier if he had a friendly priest nearby. Commerce could be conducted instantaneously across the world in magic items and gems. A wizard who wanted to steal something valuable could use clairvoyance followed by summon lantern archon to obtain the item.

I don't like this, so I make the change. My players are perfectly happy with it.

Whim!
Daniel

 

[melkoriii]

If he uses the lantern archon repeatedly as a messenger, make an arbitrary 50% chance that something more powerful than a lantern archon shows up and tells the cleric is a polite manner to cease bugging celestial agents with trivial matters as sending a message to a church. They have the spell sending for that as well as walking to the church.
Then use his level as a guideline of how long he can't cast lesser planar binding.

Celestial agents who are the the lowest of celestial beings being bugged by a lvl 9+ lvl Cleric who is doing the Gods work?

I think that’s what the Celestial agents are there for.

Cleric: Being attacked by Trolls. Need help may Pelor's agents smite thee! (Summon monster 4)
God: One of my Devout followers is needed help. You Lantern archon Terry, go and assist him.
Lantern archon Terry: Yes my God.

Latter that day....

Cleric: Wow those Trolls were building a temple to an evil god. Maybe the High Priest would like to know this and maybe look at this scroll and Unholy symbol we found.
Cleric: I summon the agent Terry of Pelor to aid me in my mission.
God: Hmmm this cleric is again in need of assistance. He is a good follower (lvl 9 cleric I would say is a good follower). Terry, go and assist him in what he needs.
Lantern archon Terry: Yes my God.
Poof: Lantern archon Terry arrives.
Cleric: Terry I am glad to see you again. Please take this Scroll and unholy symbol to the High Priest Robert in the this town (Shows picture). You will find him in the back room getting ready for mass.
Lantern archon Terry: Oh good no more Trolls. They creep me out.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

The real problem is that the lantern archon can transport up to 50 pounds of objects when it teleports. You can send magic items, books, supplies, lengthy written messages, etc.

Lack of hands isn't an issue, it just needs to be touching the object. Resting on a chest and then teleporting would take the chest and it's contents.

*chuckle* don't know how I missed THAT one, lol. I don't think this use would bother me much anyhow. melkoriii provides an apt example of why such an act is perfectly acceptable. Besides they are burning a 4th level spell that could be potentially used in a combat situation.

I wouldn't worry about it being taken advantage of since only LG, LN, or NG aligned caster can summon a lantern archon. As inthe case of a nefarious arcane caster taking advantage of the poor Lantern Archon Terry I can see the LN Wiz doing so perhaps, but most evil-doers would be unable to do so unless they dupe an unsuspecing LG caster...

 

[Caliban]

I wouldn't worry about it being taken advantage of since only LG, LN, or NG aligned caster can summon a lantern archon. As inthe case of a nefarious arcane caster taking advantage of the poor Lantern Archon Terry I can see the LN Wiz doing so perhaps, but most evil-doers would be unable to do so unless they dupe an unsuspecing LG caster...

Nothing stops a CE wizard from summoning a LG lantern archon. It's a Good and Lawful act to do so, but a wizard isn't prohibited from it. A cleric who is chaotic or evil wouldn't be able to cast the spell.

 

[Gaiden]

Pielorinho,

Keep on digging.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

A few thoughts:

1. I believe the summoning spells always summon the same creature(s) when used, i.e., when you summon a lantern archon, you always get the same lantern archon. This is not stated in the PHB, but I believe it was addressed by the Sage.

2. If that is correct, just summon that lantern archon at every church/temple/castle/etc. that you will want it to t-port to in the future. No descriptions or pictures needed.

3. As written, the game rules allow characters to use lantern archons as messengers and couriers in this manner. A GM can always house-rule otherwise, if it's a problem.

 

[Caliban]

A few thoughts:

1. I believe the summoning spells always summon the same creature(s) when used, i.e., when you summon a lantern archon, you always get the same lantern archon. This is not stated in the PHB, but I believe it was addressed by the Sage.

This is an optional rule in the DMG, not a core rule.

 

[Tom Cashel]

The core rules don't really take into account how spells might affect things outside the confines of a normal adventure or combat.

The above is what it comes down to--the core rules imply a world where lots of things are possible (i.e. magic in every household, magic as technology, etc. etc. ad nauseum).

PCs should be taken as exceptions to the "world rule." If the world rule is that Lantern Archons are not usually used in this manner, that should be enough to preserve the DM's vision, in general. The PCs should not be constrained, however. They should be the exception. The story is about the PCs, isn't it? Or is the story about the DM's world, with which the PCs have been allowed to interact?

Hey, Daniel...I think IceBear is calling you. He's in the House Rules forum. Better go see what he wants.

 

[Berk]

easy enough, can't be done until later levels because of the detail one has to describe the location in, the duration of the spell would run out before the archon even got a grasp of what the area looked like or anything.

Second, teleport right into a temple or right outside it? Are you nuts? What temple, big temples anyway, don't have dimensional locks up to stop teleportation. Oh here Mr. Assassin/Rogue. Take this scroll of teleport without error, use it to teleport invisibly into the church, and assassinate the head priest/priestess.