Sunday Chat: What New Editions Were Upgrades? Which Ones Were Downgrades?

[aramis erak]

Mongoose Traveller was a nice reprint of classic Traveller with a few updates. Mongoose 2E Traveller was just loads of better stuff. From chargen to ship combat, while keeping (IMO) the spirit of the game well intact.

Strong disagree on "reprint". It was a solid enough flavor, but it's not CT reprinted - different skill list, has a task system, similar but not actually compatible ship construction, totally different ship damage.
It was a new design informed by CT.
MGT2 was a slight downgrade, in that important chunks of core moved to other books...

 

[jtylerk]

“IMNSHO”:
Depsite the many flaws, 1eAD&D was an upgrade. 2eAD&D, despite the superior organization was a downgrade. 3.x was an upgrade from 2e, but short of 1e. The BECMI/RC line falls maybe short of 1e, but pretty enjoyable at the core. I did not enjoy 4e. Just didn’t click at all with me. 5e (2014)—it’s right there with 1e, but better organized to boot. Great stuff, definitely an upgrade. I have not checked out 5.5e, but I’m getting bad vibes.

 

[GM Lent]

Changeling: The Dreaming second edition was a marked improvemnent over the first. In fact, I think all of the classic WoD games (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling, and Wraith) were radically improved by their second editions.

I don't know that I'd call it a downgrade exactly, because it introduced some great concepts that improved the overall game, but 4th Edition D&D really rubbed me the wrong way and I couldn't get into it.

 

[DammitVictor]

Not going to touch D&D. Too complicated, too emotionally laden.

Shadowrun 1e -> 2e -> 3e are straight upgrades. I think the mechanical changes between 3e -> 4e are mostly positive, but I definitely prefer the 2050s to the 2070s as a setting. On the other hand, the 4e system is a lot more flexible for running games that aren't necessarily using the Shadowrun setting. I haven't really played Shadowrun Anarchy.

With all of the love in my heart, Alternity (2018) is a downgrade from Alternity (1998); it's a lot simpler, but it loses most of what made the original so evocative and charming.

Gamma World 2e -> 4e was a big upgrade. 3e was a different game, and 5e, 6e, and 7e were all campaign settings for different games.

 

[Lanefan]

Thing is, it's not just the jump from one edition to another than can be an upgrade or downgrade, it's also the expansions etc. within a single edition that can make that edition better or worse.

Both 1e and 2e D&D, for example, generally got worse as they went along and more expansions and add-ons came out.

 

[DammitVictor]

Both 1e and 2e D&D, for example, generally got worse as they went along and more expansions and add-ons came out.

I'd argue that 1e supplements generally dragged it down, and core 2e mostly included those parts-- so either core or "full" 1e to core 2e was a downgrade-- but the expansions and add-ons are what made AD&D 2e my favorite D&D edition and favorite game, period. Core 2e was just 1e with the worst parts of the supplements and without the best parts of the core; every innovation in the 2e core rules was something that a later supplement built on to make better, and just didn't matter without those add-ons.

AD&D 2e's biggest strength was that it could, seamlessly, go from Greyhawk and Dragonlance to Spelljammer and Dark Sun to Council of Wyrms and Kara-Tur.

 

[kronovan]

Savage Worlds has been an upgrade with each new edition; SWADE > SWD > SWEX. I felt that Shadowrun 3 was an upgrade over SR2, as was it over SW1. Every SW edition since 3 has IMO been a downgrade; albeit I did find SR4 playable. Call of Cthulhu 7 was an upgrade of CoC 6. Mongoose Traveller 2 was an upgrade of MGT1, but so is most editions of Cepheus Engine (Cepheus Deluxe, Hostile Rules, MTPs Cepheus Engine SciFi RPG),which are all based upon the MGT1 rules.

 

[billd91]

I think it would be hard for me to think of an edition change that was a downgrade across the board. There may be aspects that were a downgrade, others a lateral-grade, and others an upgrade. I have an easier time thinking of something as, broadly, an upgrade even if there are a few things it does worse on.
For example, 2e AD&D is an upgrade on 1e AD&D because it improved on a lot of 1e's features, even if the 2e ranger kind of sucked by comparison to the 1e ranger.
Traveller New Era was a lateral-grade for most of its mechanics, but a downgrade on setting and excessive militarism.
4e was a lateral-grade as a D&D RPG, but definitely an upgrade on the 3e D&D Miniatures game (how many of you remember that?), which I think parallels really well with the success 4e-based D&D board games. Some of us who didn't accept 4e as a good D&D RPG, found it worked well as the engine for board games.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I consider all revisions of D&D to be upgrades, though never without areas that were changed that should not have been touched, and parts that could have been changed, but were disappointingly left the same. Still, I would call it a gradual progress, if we take into account that it tends to wind up (to varying degrees, depending on which revamp we're talking about) to be something like four steps forward, and three steps back. Progress, but not always by any sort of leap. I think that people who don't like any given new(er) edition are folks that, for their own reason, simply can't stand the bad parts more than they like the good parts, of any given revision. I have no issue with anyone who disagrees with me here - you are absolutely free to.

 

[Deset Gled]

Many times, a new edition is an upgrade from where a previous edition ended even if it wasnt an upgrade from where it began. For example, I don't think Pathfinder 1e was really an improvement over base 3.5e. But late stage 3.5e was so amazingly messy and changed from the baseline that just pulling things back into a manageable system was an upgrade.

In a similar vein, the Rules Compendium may have not have been an improvement from BECMI in terms of the actual rules to some grognards. But the improved editing, organization, and streamlining of everything into one really well written volume made it a de facto upgrade to playability, IMNSHO.