Sunday Chat: What New Editions Were Upgrades? Which Ones Were Downgrades?

[Tonguez]

I enjoyed BECMI more than AD&D. 3e was a fun new direction, 4e a strange tangent that has managed to prove itself by comparison to 5e - 5e is in the weird place of being useful but uninspiring, is that an upgrade?

 

[Proxii]

Speaking for D&D, I'd say 4e was the only one that felt like a genuine downgrade to me. There were some good ideas in there but broadly they just didn't get it.

I don't consider 5.2e a different edition as the rules are almost identical and virtually all content made for one is fully compatible with the other. If I had to pick one side I'm leaning upgrade.

Pathfinder 1e → 2e has been a mild downgrade for me. Paizo genuinely does not seem to understand what made PF1 special. Maybe because they didn't make most of it.

Knave 1e → 2e was a huge upgrade.

I can't say I've extensively played multiple editions of any other TTRPG.

 

[cbwjm]

For my part, one of my favorite edition upgrades is Mutants and Masterminds 2E. It is superior to 1E in nearly every way (there is some hero point wonkiness), and the game got prettier and better supported in the 2E era, finally really replacing Champions for me and my supers gamers.

I thought the 2e upgrade of M&M was great for sure, I think the 3e update was fine, I'm not sure if it was strictly necessary but I did appreciate the DC versions with all of the heroes and villains.

For DnD, I started with BECMI before moving to 2e which I thought was an upgrade. 3e when it came out I thought was an upgrade, 4e was too different as a game for it to be an upgrade or downgrade, rather it felt like a similar but different game, but it did provide a bridge which helped 5e which felt like an upgrade of what came before. 5.5e I don't really feel was an upgrade, more of a sidegrade, but since it seems to have pushed me to look at the earlier editions again, maybe it was a downgrade... Perhaps in a few years I'll move from BECMI/OSE to 2e and so on.

Star wars d20 had a revised version which felt like an upgrade, feeling better than the original version, then Saga came out which felt like a definite upgrade over the older d20 version with a lot more customisation (though the way the force worked felt like a downgrade since they were largely encounter powers, at least you didn't need to put skill points into every force power you wanted to use).

 

[innerdude]

Ironsworn: Starforged is an ever-so-slightly better game than Ironsworn, and the Sundered Isles supplement makes it even better.

A revised Ironsworn 2.0 that backports the rules changes and updated oracles would be an insta-buy for me.

 

[Voidmoji]

I thought the 2e upgrade of M&M was great for sure, I think the 3e update was fine, I'm not sure if it was strictly necessary but I did appreciate the DC versions with all of the heroes and villains.

Add me to the list of folks who count 2e M&M as an upgrade. This is especially true with Ultimate Power.

I like the changes to the powers in 3e, overall. But I didn't like some other things, like skills and adding attributes.

From what I have seen of 4e, I will be adding it to the upgrade list. It has a bit of 2e beating in its heart.

 

[GrimCo]

7th sea 2nd edition was downgrade from 1st edition. First, they changed from call raise first, then roll to see if you made it to roll first, then see how much raises you can make. They also removed everything that made every Sorcery and Swordsman school unique. In 1e, every sorcery is sub system for itself. In 2ed, it uses regular raise system. In 1e, every school had it's own list of moves and special perks based on mastery level. In 2e, all schools use unified list of maneuvers, with schools giving special bonuses.

 

[Micah Sweet]

7th sea 2nd edition was downgrade from 1st edition. First, they changed from call raise first, then roll to see if you made it to roll first, then see how much raises you can make. They also removed everything that made every Sorcery and Swordsman school unique. In 1e, every sorcery is sub system for itself. In 2ed, it uses regular raise system. In 1e, every school had it's own list of moves and special perks based on mastery level. In 2e, all schools use unified list of maneuvers, with schools giving special bonuses.

Yeah, I really have no idea what John Wick was thinking with that game. To say nothing of the cluster that Kickstarter turned into.

 

[Tigris]

Pathfinder 1 to Pathfinder 2 is for me a huge downgrade: PF1 (coming from 3.5 of course) has so many cool classes, so many crazy ideas, and PF2 feels overbalanced and boring to me in comparison. Too stingy (getting +1 or +2 as bonuses is just not interesting), not heroic with all the action and feat tax.


D&D 3.5 was an upgrade since it is not a different game. I think it had good improvement overall and I liked some of the late 3.5 classes which were more experimental. The martials of the book of 9 swords especially.


D&D 5.24 is overall also an upgrade of 5E. Still far from perfect, but reintroducing more D&D 4e mechanics made martial classes, especially the fighter, better again and more fun. Weapon mastery (also not being perfect) for me alone would be an upgrade but there are some more. Sure it may also had some strange decisions which I also not like, but making level 3 the official starting level (similar to 4Es level 1), and increasing the power floor of martials (and in general of not multiclassing characters) is a good direction.


(D&D 4E is a different game, even the lead designer said that was the goal, and I agree. Its still D&D but different enough from 3.5 to not feel like an upgrade. (Pure game not simulation) Similar to 13th age again (lead designers of 3E and 4E) is a different game overall even if its also D&D (narrative game)).


The Dark Eye 5 compared to The Dark Eye 3 (I never looked into 4) also feels like an upgrade just because the complexity is a lot more bearable. I think people did not like it compared to 4E, because it did not release with all options etc. but well thats to be expected. I think it still could need A LOT MORE streamlining than what they did, but well one has to start somewhere.

 

[Vael]

I started with 3.5 DnD.

And, tbh, I've seen every iteration since as an improvement. I have affection for 3.5, and I find it fun ... as a charop, char gen game, but my first attempt to DM it was disastrous, and table play isn't as good. Like, it's a game that's more theoretically fun than actually fun, if that makes sense.

4e, sure it was very different, but this system felt balanced enough I enjoyed being on either side of the DM screen. Combat was legit fun to fun, and the game rewarded co-operative tactics. But the character building experience wasn't as good, I find you just pick the powers that match your PC ... dunno, felt a little on rails.

5e, though, synthesized a lot of what I got out of 3.5 and 4e into a single experience, while being a lot lighter and easier to play.

5e24 ... an upgrade, there have been enough quality of life upgrades to make it a better system, but I am left with the thought of "would it have been better to sacrifice backwards compatibility and gone further?". Dunno, but I'm playing a Wild Magic Sorcerer and having a ball with the new system, so I'm glad it's here.

 

[DEFCON 1]

7th sea 2nd edition was downgrade from 1st edition. First, they changed from call raise first, then roll to see if you made it to roll first, then see how much raises you can make. They also removed everything that made every Sorcery and Swordsman school unique. In 1e, every sorcery is sub system for itself. In 2ed, it uses regular raise system. In 1e, every school had it's own list of moves and special perks based on mastery level. In 2e, all schools use unified list of maneuvers, with schools giving special bonuses.

I suspect that they all knew that with all the skills, backgrounds, knacks etc. from all the supplements that were not balanced against each other in any way, shape, or form... that it would be just easier to come up with an entirely new system, rather than try and jam ALL the 1E rules into something even remotely useable.

Thankfully I have not had such compunction, and have done my own edits to the mechanics of 7th Sea 1E for my own recent use.