Sunder Armor?

[Caliban]

I'd like to know if anybody (official or unofficial) has devised a set of rules that lets characters sunder armor (preferably without upsetting the simplistic/stylized D&D combat mechanic).

I'm working on something myself right now, but the first question that comes to mind is... aren't characters sundering armor "every" time they strike an opponent?

I'd like to think that characters can specifically attack the armor of their opponents in the same weapon that they can sunder their weapons.

By the core rules, you can't "Sunder" armor. You can only sunder weapons and shields.

Otherwise armor becomes useless at higher levels, because it won't have the AC or Hit Points of the person wearing it.

You can attack unattended armor, just like any other object. In this case it has 5 hit points per point of AC.

For support, check the D&D FAQ:

What's the procedure for attacking a character's armor
or shield? Suits of armor and shields grant armor bonuses,
but what are their own Armor Classes? What are their hit
points?

You can attack a character's shield using the rules for
When a creature wears a suit of armor, you cannot attack the armor without attacking the wearer (although some creatures have special attacks that get around this limitation).

To determine the Armor Class for a suit of unattended armor,
use Table 8-11 in the Player’s Handbook, as noted above for
shields. The armor's size is the same size as the kind of
creature for which it was made (a suit of armor made for a
dwarf, elf, or human would be a Medium-size object for the
purpose of attacking it). Otherwise, attacking an unattended
suit of armor is just like attacking an unattended shield or other
nanimate object.

As an object, armor has a hardness appropriate to its
construction: 10 for metal, 5 for leather or hide, and 0 for
padded armor. (Treat studded leather as leather.) Armor has 5
hit points per point of armor bonus the armor provides.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Caliban (et al).

Thank you for that reference. I'll go a bit more into detail as to why I'm even looking for these rules. In my game, there is no "Armor Class" per se, but rather "Evasion Class" (EC) which equates to successfully making a "touch attack". There is also a standardized special attack for “parrying” in my game (not unlike the rules recently presented in Dragon #301), but that’s beside the point.

Armor (and natural armor) in my game function like damage reduction. Not a new concept, but one I like. So a chainshirt, for instance, would essentially have damage reduction/–4, or as I call it... "Hardness Rating 4" (HR4). There are a few more adjustments regarding the function of Max Dex Bonus, but that's basically it.

I agree with the assertion that you can't really damage armor without also damaging the wearer, but I still think that the armor should get damaged as well. It's an added level of bookkeeping and realism, but not one I mind implementing.

The values you gave me are perfect for my purposes.

The question that remains for me is... does armor get damaged at the same time that the wearer gets damaged? Meaning, if I deal12 points of damage against an opponent wearing a chainshirt, does 2 points of damage get applied against the chainshirt (after taking the hardness of 10 into account for steel materials) and 8 point of damage against the character (after taking the Hardness Rating 4 into account for a chainshirt)? Or do I divide both sets of damage in half between the two? 1 point against the armor and 4 points against the character?

I think this problem can be solved simplistically and stylistically without creating any additional and cumbersome bookkeeping.

What if armor only takes hit point damage when an opponent scores a critical hit against the target (due to the inherent durable construction of armor)? For example, if I scored a critical hit with my longsword against an opponent wearing a chainshirt, and deal a total of 16 points of damage, the opponent takes 12 points of damage (after Hardness Rating 4 for chainshirt) and the armor takes 6 points of damage (after Hardness 10 for steel materials). The damage is applied equally to both. That seems infinitely simple. As well, armor does not need to be constantly repaired as well.

How does that sound?

 

[Gunslinger]

It doesn't really seem possible to destroy someone's armor without scratching that person. If you allow armor to be sundered, you are actually making Fighters and Paladins more vulnerable than monks or rogues who don't depend on large bonuses from material armor. An epic level character whose full plate was sundered would lose 18 points of his AC and another +10 worth of special abilities.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

I don't think you read my post too closely Gunslinger.

Armor Class doesn't exist at all in my system. Armor Class has been converted into Evasion Class (the roll you need to make a touch attack) and parry rolls are standardized.

Moreover, armor works like damage reduction and is only damaged on a critical hit (meaning... the character is going to be hurt a lot more than the armor).

Do you see now?

 

[navriin]

Sundering armor is one of those tricky things to have in D&D's abstract combat system. Realistically, you can't use one attack to destroy an opponent's *whole* suit of armor, that would be rather silly. I imagine one way to do it would be much like sundering a person's weapon, but a successful attempt reduces the armor's AC by 1 point instead of rendering it totally useless. In game this would be like destroying/removing a section of the armor, creating a small hole that could be taken advantaged of. Repeated attempts would further reduce AC by one point, thus making heavier armors more resistant to blows.

Armor would have a hardness according to it's material, and treated as having HP based on one inch of thickness, both increased for magic armor much like magic weapons are. I would also considering only allowing armor to be sundered by weapons of an equal enchantment, the same way weapons are handled.

As far as getting around Fortification and the like, I suppose the armor would have to be reduced to 0 AC bonus before the other defenses go away.

 

[Gunslinger]

I don't think you read my post too closely Gunslinger.

Armor Class doesn't exist at all in my system. Armor Class has been converted into Evasion Class (the roll you need to make a touch attack) and parry rolls are standardized.

Moreover, armor works like damage reduction and is only damaged on a critical hit (meaning... the character is going to be hurt a lot more than the armor).

Do you see now?

Sundering armor does sound feasible using your system, but not with the core rules. The only way to do it is to house rule or use a totally different system, as you did. Thats what I meant.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Whenever you hit an armored opponent, you are cutting through their armor. Thus, you are already attempting to sunder their armor.

Besides, the Sunder feat on armor would be ... broken. Think about a bebilith. Now give every fighter it's most broken ability.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

SeveredHead.

I don't understand your reference. A "bebilith"? Is this a monster? I couldn't find it in either Monster Manual I or II.

That aside, I wasn't really suggesting a "Sunder Armor" feat, as perhaps the title of this thread suggests. It's the action of sundering armor that interests me. Any suggestion I make along those lines is going to depart from the "core" rules no matter what I do. But if I let that stop me, then I'd never get any work done.



I agree with Caliban (as I already stated) that you can't really damage armor without also damaging the wearer. But I'm still looking for a simplistic game mechanic for tracking armor damage. What I have for armor Hardness and Hit Points, as per the "official" information Caliban provided, is this:

Light armor
Padded / Hardness: 0 / Hit Points: 5
Leather / Hardness: 5 / Hit Points: 10
Studded / Hardness: 5 / Hit Points: 15
Chain shirt / Hardness: 10 / Hit Points: 20

Medium armor
Hide / Hardness: 5 / Hit Points: 15
Scale / Hardness: 10 / Hit Points: 20
Chain / Hardness: 10 / Hit Points: 25
Breast plate / Hardness: 10 / Hit Points: 25

Heavy armor
Splint / Hardness: 10 / Hit Points: 30
Banded / Hardness: 10 / Hit Points: 30
Half-plate / Hardness: 10 / Hit Points: 35
Full plate / Hardness: 10 / Hit Points: 40

That will do nicely. It doesn't say much for padded armor, but so be it. Padded armor was never really made for serious combat anyway. So my next question is this... when should a successful attack that damages a target also damage the armor?

One possible answer is...

...always.

Meaning, when you hit a target, you must have somehow defeated their armor as well, so you damage that too.

This could be resolved by saying that if a chain shirt wearing target takes 8 points of damage, the armor takes no damage, falling short of the hardness rating that a chain shirt can sustain.

And if the chain shirt wearing target takes 12 point of damage, then the chain shirt takes 2 points of damage, barely exceeding the hardness rating. That chain shirt would therefore fall from 20 to 18 hit points.

I would even agree that if the chain shirt fell to 10 or less hit points, the chain shirt would become one-half as effective. Meaning, the armor bonus would downgrade from +4 to +2, until the chain shirt lost all its hit points (becoming completely useless) or was consequently repaired.

The cost for repairs could be resolved easily as well. A chain shirt costs 100 gold and has 20 hit points. Divide 100 gp by 20 hit points and you get 5 gp per hit point. Well, 5 gp seems kind of steep to me, so make it 5 silver pieces instead. That seems more reasonable.

I would even say that repair cost depends on the severity of damage as well. You could say that if a chain suit sustained less than half hit points in damage, 5 sp per hit point for repairs, but if the chain suit sustained one-half or more hit points in damage, then the repair cost would increase to 5 gp per hit point. Inflation x10.

That’s all I have for now. As always, let me know what you folks think.

 

[kreynolds]

I don't understand your reference. A "bebilith"? Is this a monster? I couldn't find it in either Monster Manual I or II.

A Bebilith is a Demon. It can be found in the MM, listed under Demon.