D&D 5E Sundering - So what happened?

[Gargoyle]

I appreciate the details in this thread, but it's all still very confusing to me, due to the scope of the changes and the fact that I don't read the novels since I don't enjoy them. I would love it if WotC would summarize the changes between the 4e campaign guide and the timeline of the Forgotten Realms referred to in the PHB in a pdf, and include an updated map or two. Even just a few pages would help. At first I was kind of excited to get back into the FR, but this mess makes me want to just use the FR gods, races, etc in the PHB in a homebrewed world.

 

[Xodis]

I appreciate the details in this thread, but it's all still very confusing to me, due to the scope of the changes and the fact that I don't read the novels since I don't enjoy them. I would love it if WotC would summarize the changes between the 4e campaign guide and the timeline of the Forgotten Realms referred to in the PHB in a pdf, and include an updated map or two. Even just a few pages would help. At first I was kind of excited to get back into the FR, but this mess makes me want to just use the FR gods, races, etc in the PHB in a homebrewed world.

No problem, its still confusing to most everyone. I think its generally accepted that everything we "know" from whatever source is just speculation until the new FR guide comes out.

 

[Daedrova]

Spoiler alert:
She got better.
… She was a bear the whole time. Yes a bear, you read correctly. Her essence was hidden for over a hundred years in a friggin bear!
Actually it seems as if she's an amalgation of all three former deities. Mystryl+Mystra-1+Mystra-

Hahaha. Seriously though… how? Where is this story? How did show go from “murdered and non-existent” to “hidden in a bear?”

Spoiler alert:
… First Larloch shows up … then Elmister shows up, casually pulls the whole Shade enclave from the sky and just as Telamont wants to teleport away Elmister shows up in his throne room and…. No epic spell battles, not an ounce of a counterblow from Telamont…
(nevermind that in earlier novels Elminster and several other chosen tried to attack Shade, get to the mythallar and were beaten back by Telamont and the princes).

Yeah… Telamont and the princes outmatched Elminster and ALL the Chosen of Mystra (together, at the same time) in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy.

Further, per their written stats, Telamont was a more powerful caster than either of them. The following is from 3e sources (when epic levels were a significant measure of power):

Lords of Darkness pg. 82: High Prince Telamont Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz 20/Acm 5/Sha 10). Shadow Adept and Archmage levels stack with Wizard for spellcasting. That makes Telamont a 35th level wizard.

FR Campaign Setting pg. 7: Elminster, male human (Chosen of Mystra) Ftr 1/Rog 2/Clr 3/Wiz 20/Acm 5/Epic 4. Those Fighter, Rogue and Cleric levels do nothing for a spellcaster. So Elminster was a 29th level wizard. Elminster only lost power after the Spellplague, no longer a chosen. His Int was only 24, which was low considering you could easily have above 30 by level 20 (and significant because of how ability is tied to saves, slots).
Telamont is more powerful by 6 LEVELS.

By the way, Larloch was 3 levels below Telamont. From pg. 161 of Lords of Darkness Larloch is a lich Wiz 20/Epic 12… (“Epic was a placeholder for “epic wizard levels” just before the release of the Epic Level Handbook). Both have lived since the time of Netheril. I could see him almost matching Telamont outside of the enclave … if they had reason to fight it would be an epic battle. However within his own enclave and the power of his own mythal, there is absolutely no way either of these two could defeat Lord Shadow.

Where is all this written - in The Herald novel?
Why does Larloch show up? I want to read this to find out, but I don’t want to pay for a book to simply become even more annoyed… Because this all sounds like complete bulls***.

Wait, you are joking. Right?

The only possible explanation would have to be one of several plans Telamont had; this being to deceive Elminster and/or others in order to complete another, more important goal.

 

[Atomo]

By the way, Larloch was 3 levels below Telamont.

This was before you discover that Larloch is Chosen of Mystryl (yes, not Mystra or Midnight, but the original Mystryl) and before he absorbed all the wards of Candlekeep and got the power of a demigod (according Shar).

 

[Uchawi]

And on the fifth day the fourth day did not exist, and all was well and proper.

 

[Dire Bare]

Pulled from a thread here (I wish I remember who typed this so I could credit them)

Thanks Remathilis! Most useful post in this entire thread!

I've never understood the need to reboot the Realms everytime there is an edition change (except the transition from 2nd to 3rd, I guess). I hated the Time of Troubles, I hated the Spellplague, and I'm hating the Sundering. Some of the individual changes each time ended up being pretty cool, but the WAY the whole thing is handled each time is irritating.

The most irritating thing about the Sundering is that they are rolling back some of the cooler elements of the 4th Edition Realms, and are also rolling back some of the changes that seem relatively minor, or at least don't change the tone of the setting one way or another.

Resurrecting the Companions of the Hall. Horrible.

Filling in the Sea of Stars (with water) and the Great Rift (with earth). Stupid.

Earthmotes are all dropping to the ground. What's cooler than floating islands in a high fantasy setting?

All of the work Salvatore did to make orcs a more three-dimensional enemy, undone. With frightening racist rantings from the newly resurrected Companions of the Hall. Made me feel for poor ol' Drizzt that his friends came back such jerks.

That's off the top of my head, I'll just get myself worked up if I try to remember more of them. Gah!

 

[Pentegarn]

More or less... there are snippets of events

Spoiler

(Amaunator becoming his Lathander persona again, disjoining of Abeir and Toril, previously dead gods popping back alive and well, etc.)

but no explanation is given for most (any?) of those.

Most of the novels are badly written and tedious to read (IMO, of course). The Herald, Greenwood's finale to the series, being the worst -- but, after reading several of his Elminster novels, I fully expected it and can only justify my reading through it by having a hope that the whole Sundering would be explained through the novel. It wasn't, of course.

Now, I only hope for the return of Leira. That would make the whole novel fiasco almost worth it

Why should Leira be dead in your games, and why would you have to wait and hope for the possibility that Leira might return in 5th edition Forgotten Realms? I too, always liked Leira as a goddess in the Forgotten Realms. It's your choice in your games whether or not you follow the events of some really horribly written books, puposed to explain changes in a game system.

I've read several of the FR novels, and there are few that I've liked. Those I have liked still do not rank very high amongst so many fantasy books and series from much better authors with much better writing skills, and who were not leashed by game system dogma. I've used a couple of homebrew settings for most of my D&D gaming, but as far as published settings go, FR was my first, and one of my favorites that my group and I return to from time to time. So, even though I've played post 2eAD&D "Time of Troubles", 3e and 4e, I've never stopped using the AD&D greybox Forgotten Realms Campaign setting.

In our FR based games, Leira is still the Lady of the Mists. Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal still are the gods of tyranny, death, and murder. Elminster is just the sage of Shadowdale. Not the god that Greenwood has written Elminster into being just because Elminster is his character in his setting and so that no player character can ever match him. And Drizzt is just some drow that surfaced in the north that players from that region may, or may not have heard of. And not the iconic "every drow character made, ever" that all the Drizzt fanbois hopping the Drizzt bandwagon have made him to be.

We all have our own opinions of the FR novels and their authors. We all have our favorite version of the FR setting. Just use the one that you and your group enjoys the most. If you like Leira, then use her, whether or not you use the old greybox FR setting or whichever FR setting is the newest and shiniest. If you like the greybox, but wish to purchase newer FR setting versions for the system statblocks and easier, faster conversion, that's cool. It's an RPG. You don't have to have everything written down as law or follow the novels and newer edition versions as canon. Use what you and your group likes best.

 

[variant]

Hahaha. Seriously though… how? Where is this story? How did show go from “murdered and non-existent” to “hidden in a bear?”

Plot armor. The one type of armor even Cyric can't penetrate.

 

[was]

Hmm....maybe I am mistaken, but I thought the original Sundering happened during the creation of Evermeet. The high magic got out of the elves' control and their gods had to step in to prevent the spell from destroying the planet. It did, however, reshape all of the the land.

 

[Atomo]

Hmm....maybe I am mistaken, but I thought the original Sundering happened during the creation of Evermeet. The high magic got out of the elves' control and their gods had to step in to prevent the spell from destroying the planet. It did, however, reshape all of the the land.

You are right. And the high magic spell reverberated through the spacetime... Both forward and back in time. The actual Sundering is somewhat connected with the "forward in time" from that casting, but the exact details remain to be reveled yet.