Trailer Superman Full Trailer

[Scribe]

I think I’m getting it from my own reading and something both Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek have said - Waid basically has defined Superman dystopia (Kingdom Come, Injustice etc) as “what if Superman makes a big mistake, which is something he’s not allowed to do in normal continuity?” Busiek defined Clark and Steve as the moral poles of their respective universes - whatever they think is right, and they define what is right by what they do.

Which isn’t to say that there aren’t some stories where Superman doesn’t make a minor error and then correct it, but it’s still part of his infallibility that isn’t part of any other superhero (except Captain America). Iron Man is made of mistakes, and Thor makes Gotterdammerung level errors. One of Peter’s defining storylines (however much one hates it) is one gigantic mistake. Batman effs up all the time but likes to pretend he’s still the cleverest man in the room. But Clark? His salt of the earth morality means he’ll always do the right thing when it counts and any minor errors won’t have lasting effects.

I have a much different reading on some of this than you seem to.

He (Superman) is fallible. The point of those other story lines, is not that he can make a big mistake that he 'is not allowed to do' meaning he is infallible, but that he makes a choice which runs so counter to his morality, that to do so would be nonsensical in the normal canon.

Batman on the other hand is broken, as I prefer my heros, and while he makes mistakes, he doesnt have the obvious power tier to go full on dystopia like Superman.

Anyway, back to work for me.

 

[Clint_L]

He doesn’t have infallibility. He’s not the Pope. You’re imagining this. You keep repeating it and people keep saying it’s not true, but repeating it over and over won’t make it true.

I agree that he's not omniscient. Narratively, though, writers have traditionally treated him as morally infallible - even when his actions have led to bad consequences, it's because the world is wrong, rather than him. Though, his actions almost never lead to bad consequences in the end. So I guess as a character he is treated as basically being always right, at least from a simple moral perspective. I don't want to speak for @jian, but that is what I thought they were getting at.

I agree with you in that this is not a meta-text: the writers might make Superman pretty close to morally infallible, but he doesn't have godlike awareness of that. He's just a simple man (sort of) at heart. The "big blue Boy Scout" as Batman famously called him.

 

[jian]

I agree that he's not omniscient. Narratively, though, writers have traditionally treated him as morally infallible - even when his actions have led to bad consequences, it's because the world is wrong, rather than him. Though, almost always, his actions almost never lead to bad consequences in the end. So I guess as a character he is treated as basically being always right, at least from a simple moral perspective. I don't want to speak for @jian, but that is what I thought they were getting at.

I agree with you in that this is not a meta-text: the writers might make Superman pretty close to morally infallible, but he doesn't have godlike awareness of that. He's just a simple man (sort of) at heart. The "big blue Boy Scout" as Batman famously called him.

Yup, thank you, this is a good way of putting it and pretty much what I meant. Clark certainly doesn’t know he’s narratively infallible, and nor does Steve; they both try very hard every day to do the right thing, and they’re as honest as they can be with themselves and others about that. Narratively, this basically means both are infallible.

 

[chuckdee]

What I hate are attempts to make Superman all conflicted and moody. We have zillions of conflicted, moody superheroes to choose from, so let's keep the poster boy for naive innocence different.

I like the conflicts and that he has moods and is sometimes down- but overcomes them. Not having them and being forever naive is boring to me. Knowing that people might prove the worst but still believing the best- that's hope, not naivete, and that's where I like Superman to come from.

 

[chuckdee]

So I guess as a character he is treated as basically being always right, at least from a simple moral perspective.

I'd disagree with this. He's made mistakes, and Batman is one of the major people that call him out for it, which is the reason that he trusted Batman with the one thing that can take him out, and the reason that they're as close a friends as they are. They complement each other, and Batman, while he's wary of Superman's power, is hopeful despite that about Clark, and is not scared of Clark's power.

 

[nevin]

I mean, Marvel has made about 30 of those for you. We’re hardly lacking for them. They’re the biggest franchise in the history of the planet.

They did and they were mostly successful. Shame DC can't learn from that.

 

[Eric V]

They did and they were mostly successful. Shame DC can't learn from that.

Hard disagree. I don't need all my superhero fare to be the same.

 

[Morrus]

They did and they were mostly successful. Shame DC can't learn from that.

Because all films have to be the same?

Isn’t that exactly what you were complaining about in the Doctor Who thread? That ‘all sci-if’ is being Disneyfied? And now you’re complaining that DC isn’t Disneyfied?

In one thread you’re saying:

There has been a strong movement by all the studios to "Star Warsify" all sci-fi because they want a simple special effects driven model instead of good writing and consistent stories that stick to their own internal rules. Thus the mess of the current Dr. Who where special effects are considered more important than story telling

… and…

I"m not blaming Disney on Star Trek but I am blaming them for continuing down the rabbit hole on Dr. Who's increasingly vapid and tenous connection to actually being sci fi instead sci fantasy.

And now you’re complaining that DC films aren’t the same as the 30+ identikit Marvel films?

Make your mind up, man! What do you actually want? Do you want it all to be like Disney or not?

 

[Ryujin]

The funny thing is that, on the animated movie side, DC is far better at it than Marvel. At least other than the Spiderverse movies. I've said before that DC could do better by putting the folks who are in charge of their animated fare, in oversight of the live action films. I can't put my finger on it, but the animated stuff just hits better tonally, for me.

 

[trappedslider]

The funny thing is that, on the animated movie side, DC is far better at it than Marvel. At least other than the Spiderverse movies. I've said before that DC could do better by putting the folks who are in charge of their animated fare, in oversight of the live action films. I can't put my finger on it, but the animated stuff just hits better tonally, for me.

Not anymore, now it's all under Gunn direction. They ended the tomorrowverse with Crisis on Infinite Worlds.