Support caster?

[radmod]

I am a pro.
1. Healing is not buffing.
2. Healing is better done with wands than with spell slots.
3. Higher level spells = more death to your enemies = less need for healing.

The original post also included the possibility of healing (and wands cost, or may be hard to come by).

That last one is the major point....

Oh, certainly, I agree that a straight class or straight+PrC would probably be better for a whole slew of reasons. However, my erroneous impression (see below) was that you were comparing it to a bard and such.
As I tried to imply in my second post, I see support not necessarily as a person who can help the party wipe out the monsters but as a guy who has a multitude of 'things' he can do in non-combat times. That's one of the reasons I like the dual casting of the MT, he can do a bunch of things nobody ever seems to want to do (identify and divination). It's kind of funny, I'm playing a support style UM right now and my group seems to be amazed that I often have the right spell I need when we need it.

Believe what you want to believe. I'm of the opinion that if MT was as useful as you say, optimizers would use it more. Before you go off about how optimizers are not team players, I know many who enjoy buffing and building buffing oriented builds. Few use Mystic Theurge - well, unless early entry tricks are involved, but most people consider them cheesy and avoid them in real life games.

Ugh, agreed, I can't stand all those 'tricks.' I'm of the opinion that most opto's I see are interested in optimizing only themselves and doing the really cool "blow 'em out of the water" things. That's what I've often seen or read. Personally, I downplay my characters and tend to be support.

At what point have I "done" the bard?

Mea culpa. Your original post was a series derived from recommending the bard. Your terse dismissal of my opinion without explanation and without a word about the effectiveness of the bard seemed to be tacit agreement with that recommendation (and, consequently, over the MT).

Also, you seem to be taking it personally.

Not at all, except I would hope you would admit that on these forums, and others, people like to place hidden insults in their language (it's one of the reasons why I tend to be verbose). It then becomes difficult to figure out if someone is being subtly insulting or unconsciously insulting. In either case, I've found it best to respond immediately.
So when you demonstrably dismissed my opinion with the (essentially) "I'm a pro" (a oft-used euphemism for 'experienced'), it came across as "This radmod is a rank amateur who knows nothing." (BTW, before I responded I had someone else look at it to make sure I wasn't misreading and they said, without any prompting, it was insulting. In fact, they said, "boy, this guy's full of himself, isn't he?") If you had said, "IMO, the MT sucks!" then that would've been different. Hell, even "The MT sucks!" would've come across to me as funny but not insulting.

 

[Dandu]

The original post also included the possibility of healing (and wands cost, or may be hard to come by).

True, but the default assumption is that they are available.

Not at all, except I would hope you would admit that on these forums, and others, people like to place hidden insults in their language (it's one of the reasons why I tend to be verbose). It then becomes difficult to figure out if someone is being subtly insulting or unconsciously insulting.

Very true, but it is not my problem if people misread what I post.

(BTW, before I responded I had someone else look at it to make sure I wasn't misreading and they said, without any prompting, it was insulting. In fact, they said, "boy, this guy's full of himself, isn't he?")

I would just like to take a moment to point out that while I am full of myself, I also have sufficient reason to be.

 

[radmod]

Very true, but it is not my problem if people misread what I post.

I disagree. Failure to communicate properly is one of the primary components of controversy.

I would just like to take a moment to point out that while I am full of myself, I also have sufficient reason to be.

Now that gave me my big laugh for the day.

 

[Dandu]

I disagree. Failure to communicate properly is one of the primary components of controversy.

It goes both ways. Stop looking for hidden messages and you will find none.

 

[Shin Okada]

Beguiler is a good buffer/de-buffer for sure. Also it can replace rogue in many aspects (especially handling traps). As the class has Use Magic Device as a class skill, at higher level, you can use wands, staffs and scrolls of healing spell at reasonable chance of success.

Warlock does not much buff others by their invocations alone. But that is the class which can take 10 on UMD skill checks at the earliest level (level 4). As Charisma is one of it's main ability score, many of the Warlocks can automatically make DC 20 UMD check for using wands and staffs at that level (7 ranks + 3 Cha + take 10 =20). At level 12th, warlocks start to create magic items of any class's spells. Take Scribe Scroll spell and you can create a scroll of Heal (and can use it without problem).

Artificer is another buffer/UMD class. But at lower level, they work poorly. Though they gain many of the item creation feats for free, and they have Craft Reserve which meant to be used for creating magic items, they just can't make enough UMD checks to create or use magic items constantly. Only at level 13th, they gains the ability to take 10 on UMD checks.

 

[irdeggman]

Artificer is another buffer/UMD class. But at lower level, they work poorly. Though they gain many of the item creation feats for free, and they have Craft Reserve which meant to be used for creating magic items, they just can't make enough UMD checks to create or use magic items constantly. Only at level 13th, they gains the ability to take 10 on UMD checks.

Love the class, especially for theme. But you absolutely need to incorporate Action Points into your game to adequately use this class. It is a class from the Eberron setting which incorporates APs into the game.

 

[Persiflage]

Brought across in edited form from one of the other identical threads that lost out to this one in the "people taking any notice" stakes...

Consider the Crusader from the Book of Nine Swords. Multiclass with Cleric for best effect. Segue into Ruby Knight Windicator... The White Raven school of maneuvers has some great nonmagical combat buffs, particularly for a melee-orientated party, but there is much other greatness to cherry-pick from the Tome of Battle.

Seriously though, what class is better at party buffs than the common-or-garden Cleric? Combine with pretty much any (or several) full-casting prestige classes that Clerics get and you're golden. There are some reasonable Divine feats that let you do stuff like insta-buff or insta-cure with the expenditure of turning attempts... and at mid levels you get access to Persistent tomfoolery. Cloistered Cleric/Radiant Servant of [Whoever] is a solid choice, along with pretty much any prestige class that gets decent bonus domains. Take the Spontaneous Domains feat from Complete Champion for ultimate flexibility.

As with many questions that begin with "Which character is best at...", the answer is probably "Duh, a CLERIC!"

Wizards are generally better at debuffing, but that can be just as effective: imposing a -4 to-hit penalty on the bad guys is pretty much as useful as giving a +4 bonus to AC, but the real flexibility of the Wizard's debuffs is that he can generally give the party a major influx of capital in the action economy. Of course, I've just remembered, Wizards are banned in this game, which makes me want to cry actual tears...

On the other hand, if Wizards are illegal then only criminals have arcane magic [1]: tell me, has your DM banned arcane magic, or just the class "Wizard". Because if the latter, a Cleric can do a creditable job of accessing much of the Wizard spell list

 

[Particle_Man]

I agree with cleric. You might want to choose particular domains that give you more options, like the Magic domain if it is allowed by your DM (so now you can use sorcerer wands, for example, and a few sorcerer spells (useful if the game has no wizards!)).