D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

[shadowoflameth]

I could also pose an example. The assassin rolls a 3 on initiative. The target is surprised by the assassin's stealth having rolled low on his perception check but rolls a high initiative. The target can't act or react on this turn. The assassin hits him before the target acts (and has surprise because of his stealth even though he lost initiative). Then the target gets charmed and no longer considers the assassin a threat and again doesn't act on his next turn. The assassin comes up in order again with his low initiative but the target still hasn't acted. Surprise?

 

[Maxperson]

An attack is an ability check. The DC is the AC of the monster.

An attack is not an ability check. Like saving throws, it's a roll that uses stat bonuses, but nowhere is it said to be an ability check. Not in the combat section, and not in the ability check section.

And the Assassinate ability is simply a feature that character gets during combat. It does not define the entirety of how that character might possibly kill something. If the assassin is hidden on a rooftop waiting patiently for their foe who makes an appearance and provides an easy shot, the assassin will fire and drop their target. There is no uncertainty. The assassin is surely competent at their job? It would be like asking a blacksmith to make an ability check to pound metal on an anvil.

You are adding more to the Assassinate ability than is there. By RAW, it's only a crit, which can mean as little as 1 point of extra damage.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You are adding more to the Assassinate ability than is there. By RAW, it's only a crit, which can mean as little as 1 point of extra damage.

Under what circumstances is an Assassinate attack not also a sneak attack?

 

[robus]

An attack is not an ability check. Like saving throws, it's a roll that uses stat bonuses, but nowhere is it said to be an ability check. Not in the combat section, and not in the ability check section.

So a D20 roll to which you add either your strength or dex modifiers and proficiency bonus and compare with a number to see if you succeed is not an ability check?....

Just because WotC doesn’t write their books in plain English doesn’t mean we can’t say “if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...”

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So a D20 roll to which you add either your strength or dex modifiers and proficiency bonus and compare with a number to see if you succeed is not an ability check?....

Just because WotC doesn’t write their books in plain English doesn’t mean we can’t say “if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...”

@Maxperson is correct. An attack roll is explicitly not an ability check. For example Bard's JOAT ability does not give a bonus to attacks with non-proficient weapons. It does give a bonus to initiative rolls, which explicitly are ability checks. Guidance cantrip does not affect attack rolls.

 

[Maxperson]

Under what circumstances is an Assassinate attack not also a sneak attack?

I'm talking about his auto death addition.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm talking about his auto death addition.

Which must be at least +3 unless there is some circumstance which denies the Sneak Attack bonus. The sneak attack does weapon damage plus at least 2d6 (level 3). The crit doubles the weapon damage dice and the sneak attack dice, so you must roll at least 3 extra dice.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

If you're unaware of attackers you're surprised. If you're surprised you don't get to act, move or react until your first turn is finished.

If an assassin initiated combat, but the party concluded the battle halfway through round one. It's concluded. I suppose the upstaged assassin could resheathe their half drawn dagger, or what have you that started the battle. A bit of sleight of hand and no one apart from their friends might ever know they started it.

In real world, surprise is so powerful because sudden extreme aggressiveness forces a rapid change in mindset. But after an initial attack, no one will be in a relaxed frame of mind. I think the RAW supports this narrative quite beautifully, actually.

Now, if Calm Emotions were cast, or some clever acting were done - against a higher DC, perhaps skilled PCs could pull it off again in short order? Yeah, I'd let players get creative.

Regarding Charm Person to end the battle... It depends on how the fight started. If the assassin drew an unseen dagger but the Enchanter charmed the foe - before the foe had their turn, well, the foe's only enemy would be a 'trusted friend and ally', so they'd still be in a relaxed unaware state. Put yourself in the mind of out NPC, that can help adjudicate these things.
If, however, the foe had ended their turn before being charmed, too slow! They would have picked up on the tenseness and become alert. There are uncommon weapons of warning, Dex ASI's and the Alert feat in the game for a reason. Maybe delay SS until shoring up initiative?

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Didn't we have this exact discussion back in 2015? and in 2016? Twice in '17? In both 2018 and 2019? I don't think there will be any new arguments presented.

Rule zero gives the DM authority to adjucate edge-cases where strictly following the rules give an unsatisfactory result. In my opinion the case of a single assasin attacking a single completely unaware target from hiding is definitely a situation where following the initiative and surprise rules can give a very counter-intuitive result, and my solution is simple; don't roll initiative. The assassin goes first and gets to make his attack. If the target is still alive after that, combat proceeeds normally.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Ability checks, saving throws and attack rolls are divided arbitrarily to make the game work. Really they're one in the same, dividing them up allows more nuance and depth.