Surprise Attacks

[radmod]

No, no, no, no, no! There is (or should be) no such thing as a readied action outside of the initiative order. That way lies madness.

While I agree with Veg on much of what he wrote, here I have to disagree. Or rather I sort of have to disagree.
Whether we realize it or not, DMs allow actions outside of initiative all the time, so why not a readied action? I treat all situations as effectively combat rounds. As such any creature can ready an action at any time. As you indicated, the idea of aiming an arrow at a door is a readied action outside of initiative. One way to think of it is "on your initiative, you ready an arrow to fire at anyone coming through the door." Now the guy opening the door and walking through it is using his initiative to take the move actions. Bam, you fire as your ready action.

Consider spot/listen checks to begin encounters. New DMs often make the mistake of giving checks at the earliest opportunity and go from there. Invariably the players, even if they fail the checks, are alerted to something being up and begin taking metagame actions like drawing weapons. In reality, what one should be doing is adjusting the encounter set up based on the rolls. PCs roll badly? Then they're ambushed. PCs roll well? They see the ambush ahead of time.
So take the case of PCs rolling badly. The orc bowman were well aware of them for several rounds while the PCs walked into the ambush. What were the orcs doing all that time? Actions. They were using their surprise rounds to do things like draw their bows, aim, and ready.
Now reverse it. The PCs are well aware of the unaware orcs. What would you do? Well, you might go ahead and roll initiative for the players. Then according to order the players might do things like ready spells or weapons. Then every surprise round (since the orcs are unaware), the players might continue to ready or delay until someone initiates combat or the orcs become aware.

AFAIK, there's nothing in the rules that says you get one and only one surprise round. Quite frankly, if there is, I don't care, this is more reasonable and I've been doing it this way for a long time.
As veg and others pointed out, it's "how aware" is what's important.
So, let's look at the Greedo/Solo encounter from the perspective of the PC Bounty Hunter Greedo. He walks into a bar and spots Han (Han fails his spot check). Greedo, on his surprise round, decides to slip into a shadowy corner and draw a weapon. Seeing he has not been detected and not wanting to face both Han and Chewie, he takes a ready action to plug Han if he's detected (still in surprise rounds). Chewie leaves and Han still seems unaware. Knowing Jabba will pay more for Han alive, Greedo changes his readied action to intercept Han when he leaves. He intercepts Han and has the drop on him with a readied weapon. Now, at this point, both are aware and you can roll initiative. Even if Han wins, Greedo has a readied action and will automatically go first. Instead, each delays in order to talk things out (though Greedo's delay is actually a continuous ready action). However, on one of his initiative's Han decides to do a Sleight of Hand (or Bluff since he intentionally picks at the wall to distract Greedo). Greedo fails his Sense Motive and though he is 'aware' of Han, he is unaware that Han has drawn a weapon. So Han gets a surprise round, negating Greedo's readied action, and fires.

PCs are talking to an NPC. Both sides are obviously aware of each other. The conversation gets heated and a PC thinks that the NPC is probably going to cast a spell at them once he is done with his monologue. So not to take any chances, the PC casts a silence spell at the NPC in mid sentence.

Like others, I would give some chance for the NPC to realize what was about to happen, such as a Sense Motive. Then initiative would be rolled.
BTW, this is why when I converse/parlay I'm always careful to draw weapons and point them at people as a readied action. (The way I do things you get a circumstance bonus on initiative.)

Last session the PCs were talking to a very powerful NPC. During the talk, the PCs were being a bit obnoxious and this serious evil NPC was getting tired of their antics. So I wanted to have him cast Hypnotic Pattern just to shut them up so they know he means business. But I did not want them to think that he was casting a spell to start combat. But the 3e rules makes it hard to do that if everyone is aware, rolls initiative, and a PC beats the NPCs initiative and attacks him before he gets his spell off (thinking the NPC might be trying to harm them).

Now here you've actually got two different situations going on.
1) Normally, I give the PCs a chance to react. While I might just give them a Sense Motive or the like, usually I would do something like say "As he is speaking with you, he says 'let me show you something' and begins to reach in a bag." If no-one reacts, I give him surprise. My players learn quickly to question things: "Um, Sense Motive!" or "I draw my sword and tell him to be very careful!"
2) The players are being jerks so The DM Is Annoyed and Can Do Whatever He Wants Rule applies.
"Wait, shouldn't I get a Sense Motive or something?"
"Yep, you failed."
"But I didn't roll!"
"I rolled for you. You rolled low; he rolled high. Y'know, you should really pay attention more next time."

Really, though, most DMs just let the seriously bad guy do whatever they want as long as it doesn't really screw the PCs over. For example, in a game I've been in, we had a really big bad dude who literally was conjuring things out of nowhere, teleporting us around, and all kinds of stuff that isn't technically possible. Sure we asked for Will saves and Sense Motive checks, but we knew it didn't really matter. If it did, the DM would've given us a chance. If he didn't, then he could forget DMing us ever again.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Whether we realize it or not, DMs allow actions outside of initiative all the time, so why not a readied action?

Aside from the cited rules violation? Because that is the single most fun-destroying interpretation you could have.

At best you're rolling Initiative at the beginning of every single scene.

At worst you get the following:
"I move down the street and ready to fireball the first person that acts hostile. I do this every round."
"The monster Readies to pounce the first person through the door."
etc.

Which means that NPCs (or PCs) are always prepared and surprise never happens. Which is unrealistic, shatters the willing suspension of disbelief, and continually interrupts whatever the PCs or NPCs were doing. Nothing gets accomplished and tension is higher than in a game of Paranoia.

 

[Andras]

Guys, there's no 's' in 'Han' ok? It's not Hans, he's not German.

 

[Beginning of the End]

PCs are talking to an NPC. Both sides are obviously aware of each other. The conversation gets heated and a PC thinks that the NPC is probably going to cast a spell at them once he is done with his monologue. So not to take any chances, the PC casts a silence spell at the NPC in mid sentence.

I usually resolve this situation with a Sense Motive check. In this kind of scenario, being aware of the other character's existence is insufficient: You have to be aware of their hostile intent.

If the Sense Motive check determines that you're surprised, then the guy attacking unexpectedly gets a surprise round. If the Sense Motive check is successful then there is no surprise round and it's going to come down to initiative to determine who gets to go first.

(In other cases I've used Disguise checks. I even had one case where the PCs used an Intimidate check to get some thugs to back down -- earning them a surprise round when they immediately jumped the thugs.)

However, in general I think characters in that situation should be able to realize that something is up: Greedo can hypothetically notice that Han has pulled a blaster on him under the table, for example. So barring some sort of really odd circumstance, I'd be looking for some sort of skill check that could be made to determine awareness.

EDIT: I see Vegepygmy found the quote I was looking for. I always forget it's tucked away in the PHB and not in the DMG. That's explicit confirmation: The rules give the DM discretion to use whatever checks he wants.

They pointed me to the 3e rule that states that anyone not aware of the other people are surprised. So simply knowing that someone is there is enough to keep you from being surprised.

IMO, this is an overly-simplistic reading of the rules. Awareness of the encounter and your opponents is what determines surprise: If you are unaware that they are opponents and/or that an encounter is about to begin, you are not aware in any meaningful sense of the term as far as determining surprise is concerned.

It's also notable that the DMG specifically leaves the methods for determining awareness open-ended, non-specific, and up to the DM's discretion.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Whether we realize it or not, DMs allow actions outside of initiative all the time, so why not a readied action?

Because the whole point of a readied action is that it allows you to interrupt another character's turn. Allowing readied actions outside of combat thus allows characters to circumvent the initiative check entirely. As ValhallaGH says, players will quickly realize that what they should do is declare they are walking around constantly readied, which is lame. (And at which point, since everyone is readied, you have a tie, which you'll have to break by resorting to some fair method like rolling off against each other, maybe with a modifier based on their respective reaction speeds...ohhhhhhh!)

Consider spot/listen checks to begin encounters. New DMs often make the mistake of giving checks at the earliest opportunity and go from there. Invariably the players, even if they fail the checks, are alerted to something being up and begin taking metagame actions like drawing weapons.

DM makes the roll secretly. Problem solved.

AFAIK, there's nothing in the rules that says you get one and only one surprise round.

There is. And what you're calling "surprise rounds" aren't rounds at all. It's just time outside combat, during which you can take actions. That's perfectly fine. The only limitation is that you can't take the Ready action outside combat (for the reasons already discussed).

So, let's look at the Greedo/Solo encounter from the perspective of the PC Bounty Hunter Greedo. He walks into a bar and spots Han (Han fails his spot check). Greedo, on his surprise round, decides to slip into a shadowy corner and draw a weapon. Seeing he has not been detected and not wanting to face both Han and Chewie, he takes a ready action to plug Han if he's detected (still in surprise rounds). Chewie leaves and Han still seems unaware. Knowing Jabba will pay more for Han alive, Greedo changes his readied action to intercept Han when he leaves. He intercepts Han and has the drop on him with a readied weapon. Now, at this point, both are aware and you can roll initiative.

The sequence of events you're describing is fine; you're just using the wrong terminology. Here's how it works by RAW:

Greedo walks in and Spots Han; Han fails his Spot check. Greedo decides not to initiate combat, so we don't need to track rounds. Greedo slips into a shadowy corner (move action) and draws a weapon (move action or part of his move-and-hide action, doesn't really matter). Greedo stays there as long as he wants, because Han failed his initial Spot check and doesn't think to make an active Spot check, so Greedo remains hidden. Whenever Greedo finally decides to attack, he gets a single surprise round to make that attack. Now, at this point, both are aware of each other and roll initiative.

Exactly as you described. So you see, you don't have to change the rules to make sense; they already do.

Even if Han wins, Greedo has a readied action and will automatically go first.

Yes, technically Greedo can use his surprise round to ready an action and automatically go first after he and Han roll initiative. But all that actually does is screw Greedo out of the chance to attack in the surprise round and win initiative; he simply wins initiative instead. Greedo is better off attacking in the surprise round and maybe getting to attack a second time before Han can react at all.

Instead, each delays in order to talk things out (though Greedo's delay is actually a continuous ready action).

This is why correct terminology is important. If Han and Greedo both Delay indefinitely, they should drop out of combat entirely, and neither could Ready anything against the other; if one of them eventually decides to attack, they would need to roll initiative.

But if Greedo declares that he is continually Readying while Han declares that he is continually Delaying (or Readying), Greedo will maintain his slight advantage as long as he keeps Readying, no matter how many rounds go by. Essentially, Greedo is declaring that although no attacks are taking place, he is remaining alert and hostile toward Han. All well and good, and all perfectly fine by RAW.

However, on one of his initiative's Han decides to do a Sleight of Hand (or Bluff since he intentionally picks at the wall to distract Greedo). Greedo fails his Sense Motive and though he is 'aware' of Han, he is unaware that Han has drawn a weapon. So Han gets a surprise round, negating Greedo's readied action, and fires.

Now we slip into the realm of DM discretion (which is not a bad thing). I take no issue with what you're describing, so I won't attempt to pick it apart.

Really, though, most DMs just let the seriously bad guy do whatever they want as long as it doesn't really screw the PCs over.

This is also fine, IMO. If I want my bad guy to give a soliloquy, and it's not going to affect anything mechanically, then he's giving a soliloquy, damn it, and the PCs are going to sit there and take it!

 

[Oryan77]

Guys, there's no 's' in 'Han' ok? It's not Hans, he's not German.

Calm down man. I'm pretty sure Hans is German. Sorry, you must have thought I've been talking about the guy in Star Wars....I wasn't.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

You also have to notice Greedo's low hit points. Even if Greedo hadn't been surprised, Han would've surely gained victory over such beginner in one round.

 

[akbearfoot]

That is sort of the point to rolling initiative. To see who has the fastest reflexes and 'gains the advantage'....Neither group should be surprised in your example. As soon as the player says hes done talking and wants to attack, everyone rolls initiative.

Speaking and listening to bad guys monologues is technically a free action, by RAW, unless the DM says otherwise.

This is kind of like the player who wants to ready an action to attack anything that attacks him....and thinks that works at any time...which isnt possible by RAW but is still trumped by the monster that readies HIS attack to attack anyone who attacks him with a readied action...OHS NOES!!! time paradox!

 

[TheClone]

As DM, feel free to cheat.

No, don't. Never.

I don't know, this all sounds very complicated to me. Maybe RAW says you can never be surprised by anyone you are aware off. But surely - in real life - there is the possibility for someone you see to quickly pull a weapon out and stab or shoot you. Just because you didn't EXPECT that he'll do that. And that's how we'll handle that. No spot/listen vs move silently/hide if you are aware but sleight of hand/bluff vs spot/snese motive. Bluff is social hide, one could say.

A rogue pulling a blade to stab the guy talking to him needs to succeed on an opposed sleight of hand/spot roll. Or bluff/sense motive, then you get the exact maneuver of a combat feint. A wizard mumbling arcane words should roll bluff vs. sense motive or whatever. But there is a skill battle to get the surprise. And then it's initiative and hitting each other with pointy sticks.

 

[aboyd]

I usually follow how spells work when I think about how to resolve this stuff. By that I mean that since swift & immediate spells don't provoke, if someone wanted to end conversation and start a fight, a swift spell would get off right away and then everyone goes into normal initiative. However, a standard action spell takes a few seconds, so in that case I'd find out who was adjacent and had a weapon drawn already, and give them a chance to do an attack of opportunity to stop it. If that interrupted the spell, fine. If not, too bad.

Then into normal initiative.

As for Han Solo, I'd say pulling the trigger is a swift action, and thus, no AOO, no counter move. Of course, I'd give my players a chance to roll for Spot before just declaring the gunshot got off. However, I'd make the Spot DC sorta high.

I realize that this system is of my own devising. However, it seems to have worked well for the last few years.