D&D 5E Surprise; the kicking down the door type (Starter Box)

[Morrus]

I would think the people on the other side of the room, behind a closed door, would have disadvantage in hearing people on the other side unless they were paying attention.

Sure. I said that in an earlier post.

 

[KarinsDad]

Surprise in the Starter Box Set is conducted via a Dexterity/Stealth v Passive/Perception test, but that doesn't feel right for a kicking down the door type of surprise; that feels more sudden and less a use of being Stealthy. I guess it could still use Stealth but I'm not entirely happy with it.

What's your take on it?

My take is that the PCs use group stealth to get up to the door.

We all roll initiative. If the group stealth check was successful for one or more enemies, then the PCs get to act without interference. Any enemy who had high enough perception is not surprised and gets to act in initiative order.

The PCs not knocking the door down Delay.

The PC or PCs knocking the door down get to do a Strength check. With two of them doing it, the one doing the Strength check waits until the second does the Help action.

If the door gets knocked open, any PC who still has a turn gets to do so on the surprise round via initiative order like always. So do any enemies that were not surprised and still has a turn (via Delay, or turn did not yet come up).

If the door does not get knocked open, then any PC who still has a turn gets to do so on the surprise round. It's still a surprise round at that point. They could try to knock open the door themselves, they could try to set up an ambush, whatever. As a general rule, they cannot target the foes until the PCs get the door open (shy of magic or unusual circumstances).

But in order to get to the point of surprise, the PCs need to use either Stealth or a group check on Stealth.


Edit: Just realized that group surprise checks are a bit wonky. If there are 3 different types of monsters in the room, say with Perception 10, 12, and 15, then if half of the PCs beat 10, then the 10 Perception monsters are surprised, if half beat 12 then the 12 Perception monsters are surprised, etc.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The PCs not knocking the door down Delay.

There isn't a delay action in 5e. Not having that action kind of messes up surprising foes quite a bit.

Most likely it is to keep the game simple and keep everyone on their initial initiative count, rather than moving it all over the during the course of an action scene. And it can be justified when visualizing the scene too. In the course of combat rounds, you don't have a whole lot of time to plan. You need to choose and act decisively now (ie, as soon as your reflexes let you) or you end up just standing around as the fight goes on around you. You can ready an action to respond to a specific trigger, because you are taking a decisive action to focus on paying attention trying to notice exactly that trigger you are waiting for. If you aren't decisive, you can either just stand there thinking, or you can try to defend yourself while you stand there thinking (Dodge).

However, when you are attempting to surprise, you often want a specific character in the party to act first. RAW, the only way I can see to do that is to either declare the party is attacking and then hope that character wins initiative, or for anyone who beats their initiative to ready an action (and it's iffy whether you can perform a Ready action before the action that initiated combat contact has taken place). Otherwise, when character one says he looses his surprise arrow, everyone has to roll initiative, and those who beat him have to basically forfeit their action until their next turn--which means they might not even get surprise at all.

My solution is to either allow characters who beat the combat initiator to Ready their actions as normal (right after he shoots at the orcs, I...), or to let the character who intends to initiate combat simply act before everyone in this particular round. They act first this round, forfeit acting on the initiative count that they rolled, and then commence acting on their initiative count next turn and for the rest of the battle. I haven't fully decided which one I like best.

Another method would be to allow the person who initiates combat to perform their action for free--essentially before the surprise round, and then act in their normal initiative. The potential problem with this is that they will automatically be able to act twice before their opponents, and potentially three times.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

There isn't a delay action in 5e. Not having that action kind of messes up surprising foes quite a bit.

Most likely it is to keep the game simple and keep everyone on their initial initiative count, rather than moving it all over the during the course of an action scene. And it can be justified when visualizing the scene too. In the course of combat rounds, you don't have a whole lot of time to plan. You need to choose and act decisively now (ie, as soon as your reflexes let you) or you end up just standing around as the fight goes on around you. You can ready an action to respond to a specific trigger, because you are taking a decisive action to focus on paying attention trying to notice exactly that trigger you are waiting for. If you aren't decisive, you can either just stand there thinking, or you can try to defend yourself while you stand there thinking (Dodge).

However, when you are attempting to surprise, you often want a specific character in the party to act first. RAW, the only way I can see to do that is to either declare the party is attacking and then hope that character wins initiative, or for anyone who beats their initiative to ready an action (and it's iffy whether you can perform a Ready action before the action that initiated combat contact has taken place). Otherwise, when character one says he looses his surprise arrow, everyone has to roll initiative, and those who beat him have to basically forfeit their action until their next turn--which means they might not even get surprise at all.

My solution is to either allow characters who beat the combat initiator to Ready their actions as normal (right after he shoots at the orcs, I...), or to let the character who intends to initiate combat simply act before everyone in this particular round. They act first this round, forfeit acting on the initiative count that they rolled, and then commence acting on their initiative count next turn and for the rest of the battle. I haven't fully decided which one I like best.

Another method would be to allow the person who initiates combat to perform their action for free--essentially before the surprise round, and then act in their normal initiative. The potential problem with this is that they will automatically be able to act twice before their opponents, and potentially three times.

You might be overthinking it a bit. The way I see it, initiative is only rolled (and the resulting turn sequence used) after combat is initated (you can roll it ahead if you like, but it's not used yet). So if the initiating action is the breaking of the door, then that happens before initiative.

Everyone else (including anyone behind the door who knows someone is coming) can act in any way that seems reasonable for the amount of time the door-breakers take getting organized. Most fellow PCs will stand around waiting for the door to come down. Bad guys beyond the door would rpresumably drop what they're doing and gather weapons (if they know anyone is there, and expect violence.)

At any rate, I would normally use "the door smashes in with a loud crash, roll for initiative." rather than a lot of frustrating...
"It's your turn, what do you do?"
"Is the door open?"
"Not yet, the fighter goes later."
"Wake me when the door opens."
YMMV.

I do like how you describe the reason for the lack of the delay action. It's always been a little odd that someone can wait to act and still have the same amount of time as if they had acted right away.

And ready no longer causes you to change initiative order, which is good.

 

[KarinsDad]

There isn't a delay action in 5e. Not having that action kind of messes up surprising foes quite a bit.

Most likely it is to keep the game simple and keep everyone on their initial initiative count, rather than moving it all over the during the course of an action scene. And it can be justified when visualizing the scene too. In the course of combat rounds, you don't have a whole lot of time to plan. You need to choose and act decisively now (ie, as soon as your reflexes let you) or you end up just standing around as the fight goes on around you. You can ready an action to respond to a specific trigger, because you are taking a decisive action to focus on paying attention trying to notice exactly that trigger you are waiting for. If you aren't decisive, you can either just stand there thinking, or you can try to defend yourself while you stand there thinking (Dodge).

Well, that's problematic. Thanks.

However, when you are attempting to surprise, you often want a specific character in the party to act first. RAW, the only way I can see to do that is to either declare the party is attacking and then hope that character wins initiative, or for anyone who beats their initiative to ready an action (and it's iffy whether you can perform a Ready action before the action that initiated combat contact has taken place). Otherwise, when character one says he looses his surprise arrow, everyone has to roll initiative, and those who beat him have to basically forfeit their action until their next turn--which means they might not even get surprise at all.

I wouldn't think so. I think init is rolled and then PCs turns come up and a bunch of PCs Ready for when the door is finally open. Since there does not appear to be a Charge action either (shy of feats or special class abilities), it might be problematic for melee PCs to get past the door and able to attack. They might just have to move into the room (they could throw a ranged weapon, but that might risk the NPCs shutting the door before the PCs actually get inside the room if some of the NPCs are not surprised or if none of the PCs move in before the following round).

PCs do not get to do combat actions before init seems to be the intent and does simplify things. Determine surprise, Establish positions, Roll initiative, Take turns. PCs get to use the Ready action to wait until the one PC fires the arrow or opens the door, or whatever the trigger may be if their init was higher, but they do not get to roll initiative after he does so.

My solution is to either allow characters who beat the combat initiator to Ready their actions as normal (right after he shoots at the orcs, I...), or to let the character who intends to initiate combat simply act before everyone in this particular round. They act first this round, forfeit acting on the initiative count that they rolled, and then commence acting on their initiative count next turn and for the rest of the battle. I haven't fully decided which one I like best.

Another method would be to allow the person who initiates combat to perform their action for free--essentially before the surprise round, and then act in their normal initiative. The potential problem with this is that they will automatically be able to act twice before their opponents, and potentially three times.

I wouldn't change the rules on this. RAW handles it. The PC busting down the door with the lowest init forces the rest of the PCs to use Readied actions. No need to change RAW if RAW doesn't have a flaw.


Thanks for letting me know about Delay. I really like Ready as written now. No need to change initiative order anymore. Sweet!

 

[KarinsDad]

One other thought on this.

A PC by RAW could not Help another PC kick down the door if the helping PC has a lower initiative.

A few solutions to this:

1) If both PCs have high Strength, then the first init PC helps and the second PC does it.
2) If both PCs have high Strength, then the first init PC tries and if he fails, the second PC tries.
3) If the helping PC has low Strength, then a different PC with a higher initiative Helps instead.

This might mean that the PC attempting to kick down the door might not have Help every time, but it does give the party a few ways to adjust the plan to initiatives.

 

[Branduil]

Is there any rule that you can only have one surprise round? I would think that, as long as one side is unaware of the other, the other side can continue to act with surprise.

In the door-kicking example, it would work like this:

Ernie the Elf is scouting ahead in a dungeon and hears Orcs on the other side of a wooden door. The Orcs do not hear Ernie, who reports back to the party. The party decides they will ambush the Orcs by kicking down the door. As they approach the door, the DM tells them to roll initiative.

Round 1:

-Ernie the Elf has the highest initiative and moves to the right of the door
-Brok the Barbarian gets the second initiative. He moves in front of the door and readies an action to smash it as soon as everyone is in position.
-Kelly the Cleric moves behind Brok and readies an action to aid Brok in smashing the door.
-Womack the Wizard moves a few feet behind everyone else
-They make a group stealth check. Ernie and Brok succeed so the party succeeds.
-Brok the Barbarian smashes down the door

Round 2:

-The DM rules the Orcs are surprised by the door breaking down. The party gets a surprise round as per the rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

Is there any rule that you can only have one surprise round? I would think that, as long as one side is unaware of the other, the other side can continue to act with surprise.

In the door-kicking example, it would work like this:

Ernie the Elf is scouting ahead in a dungeon and hears Orcs on the other side of a wooden door. The Orcs do not hear Ernie, who reports back to the party. The party decides they will ambush the Orcs by kicking down the door. As they approach the door, the DM tells them to roll initiative.

Round 1:

-Ernie the Elf has the highest initiative and moves to the right of the door
-Brok the Barbarian gets the second initiative. He moves in front of the door and readies an action to smash it as soon as everyone is in position.
-Kelly the Cleric moves behind Brok and readies an action to aid Brok in smashing the door.
-Womack the Wizard moves a few feet behind everyone else
-They make a group stealth check. Ernie and Brok succeed so the party succeeds.
-Brok the Barbarian smashes down the door

Round 2:

-The DM rules the Orcs are surprised by the door breaking down. The party gets a surprise round as per the rules.

The problem with your example is the that group stealth check needs to be first before the team acts. Moving into position is determined as part of the group stealth check. Declaring actions is done on the turns of the PCs in the first round as per:

Determine surprise, Establish positions, Roll initiative, Take turns.

Surprise is determined before positions are established and before initiative is rolled.

 

[Branduil]

The problem with your example is the that group stealth check needs to be first before the team acts. Moving into position is determined as part of the group stealth check. Declaring actions is done on the turns of the PCs in the first round as per:

Determine surprise, Establish positions, Roll initiative, Take turns.

Surprise is determined before positions are established and before initiative is rolled.

That's a fair point. Overall, though, I don't think the lack of a delay action is a big problem. The first action in an ambush, 99% of the time, will either be a ranged attack or breaking down a door like in this example. Both of those actions can be resolved through the ready action.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

You might be overthinking it a bit. The way I see it, initiative is only rolled (and the resulting turn sequence used) after combat is initated (you can roll it ahead if you like, but it's not used yet). So if the initiating action is the breaking of the door, then that happens before initiative.

In general that's how I rule it too. It's more problematic when the initiating action is one of the characters/monsters sniping the other party. Do I let the sniper have 2 guaranteed actions (and a chance of a third) before his opponents can act? That's what will happen if he attacks before the initiative order begins.

I do think it probably works out best just to use the Ready action, though.

I wouldn't change the rules on this. RAW handles it. The PC busting down the door with the lowest init forces the rest of the PCs to use Readied actions. No need to change RAW if RAW doesn't have a flaw.

Yep, after having thought about it, I think that's the way to go. In the last packet I wasn't so keen on it, because you had a lot of limits on what actions could be readied (no spellcasting for example). Now that you can ready any action the only limitation applicable to this situation is that the characters won't be able to move with their readied action (unless it's an action to Dash). That makes sense however, since with characters with varying degrees of reflexes all attempting to time actions within a few seconds, it makes sense that not everyone would be able to move exactly when they want to, some people might lag behind, etc. Everyone still gets to perform an action of their choice in the surprise round though, and that's what's important.