Surviving low-level old school D&D

[Inez Hull]

"My 8th level cleric stands atop the Pyramid of Death!"

PS

This.


My first decade of gaming was in BECMI (we went straight from BECMI to 3E) and we saw PC deaths regularly and TPK's were not an odd occurance. You get around it with better tactics and smart play and we made a few rules tweaks like max HP on first level and deaths door, but ATEOTD mortality is just part of the system - and often a fun part! Funnily enough, even though we have matured as a gaming group that element of our games often remains 20 years on. We've come to call the style of play "hardball". As a GM if you try to hard out an easy break the players resist it - they want to earn their PC's stripes the old, bloody way. It means you find ways of getting around combat, but once blades are drawn expect [PC] blood to flow.

 

[haakon1]

For the record, I think that the OP is correct. Earlier D&D was harder to succeed in. Low-level bodies piled up. Success wasn't guaranteed. That was part of the game.

Part of the fun, indeed. For the people I game with, it was also true in 3.5e. The first dungeon in Cauldron ate what adds up to two parties for us. After the TPK, we gave up.

 

[haakon1]

Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.

AD&D was ADVANCED D&D, after all, not for the hobbyist gamer.

Seriously, I was TAUGHT the game by somebody who had played before. So I never had to pick up the books and guess what to do. I also read the books religiously and memorized just about all Gary's adventuring advice. When I said "read religiously", I mean this in the context of going to a Catholic school where we memorized a lot of stuff. I was well-aware of living to fight another day . . . and perhaps just more paranoid/cautious than most.

My DM had to arrest my PC's sometimes to get them to go into a dungeon at all! That stuff is dangerous!

 

[haakon1]

You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...

My favs were fighters, paladins, and clerics. Clerics had the best survivability.

PCs: We listen at the door.
DM rolls: You hear nothing.
PCs: Damn. Lets leave for the day and try again tomorrow.

More like:
PC Thief: Check the door for traps, looking at the hinges, the floor below, and the ceiling above. Anything unusual? Is there a lock?
DM rolls: You don't see anything unusual. There doesn't appear to be a lock.
PC Thief: Any light coming in around the door?
DM: Yes, a little bit.
PC Thief: I take off my helmet, press my ear to the door, and listen. What do I hear?
DM rolls: Nothing.
PC Thief: I step back and whisper to the party: "Seems like no traps or locks, but there's light beyond."
PC Fighter: I'll open it. I draw my sword.
etc.

Still, it doesn't stop the missed traps, or the ones that require more than the few pounds of pressure a pole creates. (Poles are not an exact science).

Tapping and listening for hollow spaces, not hoping to trigger a trap. The big pits are where the monk in the lead shines, with their falling ability.

Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!

Honestly, thief was my least favorite class to play, and I had at least a 50% death rate with them. But we usually treated it as a dungeon exploration technician, not a thief/rogue/swashbuckler, but a combat engineer/EOD expert. Some folks like that role in D&D -- and I have total respect for it in real life.

 

[Lanefan]

For us it was pretty straight forward:

Learn or die. Have fun learning, and have fun dying.

Or just keep on having fun dying. I've been doing that for about 27 years now...

I went from Basic D&D to Expert, to AD&D, then onwards. The groups I played with houseruled the heck out of the game. Everyone in the area figured out pretty early on that rolling a bunch of average stats was no fun, so point systems, 4d6 + reroll 1's + take highest 3 + assign as you like, and many other variants became the norm.
[...]
We survived by making houserules so the game was more fun, learning basic tactics and strategy, and reminding ourselves that even utter dimwit characters (Int or Wis 3) either learn from experience or die.[/QUOTE]Utter dimwit players occasionally learn, too...but not always.

A wise gamer I met pointed out to a young and too-by-the-book young DM (yours truly) that when the PCs run out of hit points, you can't torture them any more. So don't make them run out of hit points too soon. Pace yourself. It's not meant to be a horror house for the DM's entertainment. But if the hit points don't drop, the players will lose interest.

True enough; and good advice.

What I find is that no matter how many characters die, as long as there's one survivor that gets back to town the party (and thus, game) goes on. And it never fails there's always one player - and not always the same one - who keeps some sort of escape strategy on hand at all times even at the lowest of character levels, in part for just this reason. Maybe this is why in 25 years of Viking-hat 1e DMing I have never been able to kill off an entire party, despite some very close shaves and many situations where things were such that they probably all deserved to die. (yet a friend started running a 3e game last summer and went through 2 entire parties in a month!)

And, it doesn't take long for parties to build up enough resources to start bringing people back to life, at which point you're set.

As for how to survive: learn the roll-up tables. Use repeatedly. Eventually, one or two of your PCs will last long enough to build up some levels and wealth; and away you go.

Lan-"rookie of the year in 1984 and still going"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...

Hmmm...the two most successful old-school characters I ever had were a Fighter (Lanefan by name, oddly enough ) and a gonzo Dwarf Cleric who acted like a Fighter.

I've never run a pure Thief long-term; the most successful ones I've seen other people run were played more like light stealthy Fighters, that would sneak in for a backstrike but have enough starch and ability to then stand in for the rest of the battle.

Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!

A lot depends here on what the DM and the rest of the players will let you get away with in terms of solo scouting (and pilfering) forays; as that's where Thieves really shine. If the DM/players won't stand for solo scouts, the Thief is somewhat hamstrung.

You know, I don't lament the days of "the magic-user and his disposable entourage" being the typical D&D party.

True. "The disposable magic-user and his ever-wealthier entourage" is, however, a party structure I've seen evolve on more than one occasion.

Lan-"I own a wizardslayer longsword and know how to use it"-efan

 

[haakon1]

True. "The disposable magic-user and his ever-wealthier entourage" is, however, a party structure I've seen evolve on more than one occasion.

I've definitely seen this too. Keeping the MU alive was a challenge.

 

[Korgoth]

Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.

Bullgrit

Right... either you're fallible or they're liars. Hmm. Don't be hatin' just 'cause you can't hack it.

Seriously, though, you should listen to some of the advice in this thread. And here's one that I cannot emphasize enough: flaming oil. It's worth its weight in gold.

My Empire of the Petal Throne (1975) group only lost 1 character in the underworld. The party is now mostly level 4 (one level 3 who joined late... I start everybody off at 1). They leaned heavily on the following tactics:
1. Flaming oil.
2. Hirelings... crunch all you want, they'll hire more.
3. Fleeing stuff that looked / sounded / smelled too scary.
4. Offering parley to intelligent encounters.
5. Used up magic items without reservation.
6. Just plain good at solving puzzles & riddles and avoiding traps.

That's another one you should use: parley. Unless your DM is a hoser who never lets the monsters even talk to you, it is extremely useful. Some monsters don't always want to fight. Sometimes they can be bribed, and some aren't even hostile at all but are in the dungeon as information sources and role playing opportunities.*

* - As one of my players observed about a strangely mutated but beautiful witch they encountered on the 4th level: never attack a pretty girl in the wilderness. If she can survive in that environment then you do not want to go there. And he was right.

 

[Betote]

I have to confess that our main experiences with BD&D (Rules Cyclopedia / Labyrinth Lord) were indeed post-3e. In fact, They've been after several 3.x TPKs in Age of Worms. So it's understandable for us to be paranoid

We also used some houserules:
* "Broken shield": If a character had a shield, he could discard it instead of suffering damage from an attack. This could be done after rolling for damage.
* Max. hps at 1st level.
* PCs are unconscious at 0 hp, dead at -10.

 

[Cadfan]

More like:
PC Thief: Check the door for traps, looking at the hinges, the floor below, and the ceiling above. Anything unusual? Is there a lock?
DM rolls: You don't see anything unusual. There doesn't appear to be a lock.
PC Thief: Any light coming in around the door?
DM: Yes, a little bit.
PC Thief: I take off my helmet, press my ear to the door, and listen. What do I hear?
DM rolls: Nothing.
PC Thief: I step back and whisper to the party: "Seems like no traps or locks, but there's light beyond."
PC Fighter: I'll open it. I draw my sword.
etc.

That's it? That was your door opening procedure?

No wonder all your thieves died.

Our door opening practices and procedures handbook was so long that I can't even remember all the steps in the checklist anymore. In the culture of early edition fandom, that means I am EXTREMELY MANLY.