Sustain Provokes?

[Artoomis]

But that's based on p268 - the OA is provoked because you're making a ranged or area attack.

p268 doesn't care what action you're taking, or if you're taking an action at all - it cares about whether or not you're making a ranged or area attack.

A Warlord power that lets someone make a ranged attack as a free action will have the attacker provoke an OA - he's making a ranged attack....

Bigby's Grasping Hands can be used to make an attack in round 2, even if you haven't Sustained the power - this will still provoke an OA, because it's a ranged attack.

I think you may be over-analyzing, Hyp.

While it is true that Freezing Cloud is adjudicated as an attack roll, it's really not the wizard making an attack because the wizard is not doing anything, its just an ongoing effect. The wizard is not making an attack roll, but merely using an attack roll to adjudicate the effect. How, then do we know the difference? Simple: The wizard is not sustaining the power. Admittedly, this paragraph is my interpretation of why the CustServ decision came down the way it did, based in part upon the additional explanation they came forward with for M's Sword.

As for Bigby's Grasping Hands, any additional attacks are granted only if the wizard sustains the power, so an OA would happen in this case. i assuming, of course, that the "The hands persists" means that further attacks may be made using the hand. If not, there would be little point in sustaining this power.

Bigby’s Grasping Hands...
Daily Arcane, Conjuration, Force, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Effect: You conjure two 5-foot-tall hands of force...
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: ... force damage, and the hand grabs the target. If the target attempts to escape, the hand uses your Fortitude or Reflex defense.
Special: If the hands have each grabbed an enemy, you can slam the enemies into each other as a standard action, dealing ... force damage to each grabbed target. After the attack, each hand returns to its original square with its grabbed target.
Sustain Minor: The hands persist.

And, of course, since you're using a CUstServ answer on which to base your position, I'd point out that when I asked CustServ "Does the wizard provoke an OA when someone moves into the Freezing Cloud, since there's an area attack?", they said "That's how the power's written".

True enough, but you may notice I went to great pains to get a clear, unambiguous answer and have done so. I think my later answer is better thought out, and note I had two CustServ analysts weight in on it, which gives it even more credibility. It seems to me that the answer that I got overrides your earlier answer.

[quote = Hypersmurf]Even if the Warlord power let him make a ranged attack without taking an action, he'd still provoke an OA, per p268 - he's making a ranged attack.[/quote]

Are there any such powers?? It seems unlikely. If not, that's a moot point, otherwise known as a red herring and I will address it only if some specific example can be found, otherwise I will assume such a power does not exist.

I will send two more questions to CustServ on this issue, to wit:

1. Is the following a fair restatement of what you have told me so far:

While sustaining a power, a ranged or area attack will allow an OA. The attack type (ranged, area, close, etc.), when unspecified, is of the same type listed in the power's description.

2. If so, does this mean that the attacks made in subsequent rounds from someone entering a Freezing Sphere here would not provoke an OA on the wizard because the wizard is not taking any actions (no sustaining the power). Note that if this is true, it invalidates an earlier answer from you folks at Customer Service, but I don't see why, after further consideration, you cannot change your collective mind.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As for Bigby's Grasping Hands, any additional attacks are granted only if the wizard sustains the power...

Not so. The Hands last until the end of your next turn when you cast the spell. Even if you don't sustain the power, you can still get an extra attack - two, in fact, or even more if you can gain additional move actions - in the second round, before the spell expires.

True enough, but you may notice I went to great pains to get a clear, unambiguous answer and have done so. I think my later answer is better thought out...

Ahhh.

... and note I had two CustServ analysts weight in on it, which gives it even more credibility. It seems to me that the answer that I got overrides your earlier answer.

Gosh, if we're counting, my question went via Josh, Paul, and Chuck, plus consultation with Line Developers.

I will send two more questions to CustServ on this issue, to wit:

1. Is the following a fair restatement of what you have told me so far:

While sustaining a power, a ranged or area attack will allow an OA. The attack type (ranged, area, close, etc.), when unspecified, is of the same type listed in the power's description.

While sustaining a power, a ranged or area attack provokes an OA... but that's because a ranged or area attack provokes an OA. It's like saying "A Cleric gets a standard, a move, and a minor action in a round". It's true... but it's because everyone gets a standard, a move, and a minor action in a round. You can drop "While sustaining a power" from the sentence, and what you're left with - "A ranged or area attack will allow an OA" - is still true.

If you send a question to CustServ, saying "Does a Cleric get a standard, a move, and a minor action in a round?", and they say "Yes", that doesn't mean a Fighter doesn't get the same set of actions. If you say "While sustaining a power, does a ranged attack provoke an OA?", and they say "Yes", that doesn't mean any other ranged attack doesn't provoke an OA.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Not so. The Hands last until the end of your next turn when you cast the spell. Even if you don't sustain the power, you can still get an extra attack - two, in fact, or even more if you can gain additional move actions - in the second round, before the spell expires....
-Hyp.

Ah, I see what you mean. I missed the "The hands last until the end of your next turn" line.

Well, it's a judgement call, but in this case the Wizard is clearly making the hands attack so I'd say it would provoke an OA.

That said, the main point of this thread and my questions to CustServ has really been to not exclude sustain a power as provoking an OA, and that's been expanded a bit to include whether or not a Wizard provokes an OA when the effect does something without any input from the Wizard, even if it involves an attack roll.

I think we both now agree now that an attack that happen from a minor action of sustaining a power is not exempt from OAs. Correct?

 

[Artoomis]

Well, here you have it. Clear as mud. ROFL.

Unfortunately there is no blanket rule in the game that says your statement is true. If a DM wants to that it is true for their own game, they are free to do so. There is nothing wrong with a group using that statement as a general guideline if it makes sense to them. Just like there is nothing wrong with an exception to that statement that might say conjurations or zones (or other powers that seem independent of the caster) that make attacks on your behalf do not make you provoke Opportunity Attacks. It's not in the rules, but a DM might rule that way.

It is possible that a member of the Game Support team gave an answer for a question that was not covered in the rules as written. Sometimes our customers just want a functional answer that works for their game. We often have to mention the caveat that the rules don't cover a particular issue, but sometimes we let that caveat slide when we feel the customer just wants help or advice. We want to support your game and offer good and (usually correct) answers that will enrich your play experience.

Generally speaking in regards to your specific questions, the rules only state the following: If you use a ranged or area power or make a ranged or area attack when adjacent to an enemy, you will provoke an Opportunity Attack.

Ask your DM how they would handle unusual situations if they don't make sense to your group's internal sense of logic.

I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!


Take Care and Good Gaming!

Sam

One more (final?) clarification:

1. Is the following a fair restatement of what you folks have told me so far:

While sustaining a power, a ranged or area attack will allow an OA. The attack type (ranged, area, close, etc.), when unspecified, is of the same type listed in the power's description.

2. If the above is a fair statement of the way this works, does this mean that the attacks made in subsequent rounds from someone entering a Freezing Sphere would not provoke an OA on the wizard because the wizard is not taking any actions (not sustaining the power). Note that if true, it invalidates an earlier answer from you folks at Customer Service, but I don't see why, after further consideration, you cannot change your collective mind.

 

[Caliban]

Well. you got a more definitive statement of "We aren't sure, the rules aren't clear" than I did the last time.


For what it's worth, I rule it as they provoke if it is costing the wizard an action for the spell to make an attack, with an exception for Mord's sword since it implies that the conjuration is the one attacking when you sustain it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The whole upshot of all this IMHO is that there IS no hard and fast rule, just like CS says in that last reply. It is in the realm of DM adjudication. Just speaking for myself as a DM I would rule based mostly on the expectations of my players, logic, and balance. I THINK that would essentially come down to "a sustain which simply extends an AoE does not provoke an OA, even if the mechanism of the AoE is structured using an attack roll, but one that allows further attacks to be launched does."

So a zone that attacks everyone in it and can be sustained would not provoke OA, but something like M's Sword or the Bigby's Hand spells, or Flaming Sphere attacks, WOULD provoke an OA. This would basically be asking the question "is the attack DIRECTED by the caster?" or is it just a consequence of the effect of the spell itself.