Swallowed Thief

Gaiden said:
I don't see how you could justify not giving the rogue sneak attack?
Because a fighter in the same position would make exactly the same moves to get out?

Because every creature which has swallow whole also has strange muscles that close the gap everytie someone cuts himself out?

Really, the answers have been given: if you don't like it because the justification for them isn't good enough in your opinion, go ahead and house rule it. beware the fact that the rogue will from now on go and jump in like Tommy Lee jones in Men in Black.

Rav
 

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just sounds like another case of the rules getting in the way of reality...

course... your poor rogue would just be *DEAD* if he was really swallowed... :)


joe b.
 

jgbrowning said:
just sounds like another case of the rules getting in the way of reality...

course... your poor rogue would just be *DEAD* if he was really swallowed... :)


joe b.

What "reality"? Do you know the exact inner anatomical details of a Purple Worm or other such monster? How do we know the "stomach" that is referred to isn't just a fleshy, muscled mass that crushes food and is melted down before it is deposited in the softer, vulnerable lower stomach or some such? The AC the Purple Worm has for it's "stomach" is higher than the AC it has for it's skin, so I would assume it isn't an easily pierced, vulnerable vital organ. Making assumptions about a fantasy game based on "reality" is an exercise in futility.
 

A Rogue has been swallowed whole, is being crushed by the beasts stomach muscles, and melted by it's stomach acids. The Rogue either has little to no space to move in, (thus losing his Dexterity bonus to AC and such, as he is considered grappled while in the stomach), and you think he can calmly and precisely place his attacks in order to get Sneak Attack damage?

Actually, yes. To me, that situation is not different enough from other situations where the rogue is not denied his ability to sneak attack.

Let's see if we can come up with a similar situation where the rogue is not inside a stomach to serve as an example of what I mean. Let's say the rogue has blindsight and tremorsense (to avoid problems of not being able to see). Let's say that said rogue is on the floor of a pit of acid (A.K.A. - immersed in acid) and is being grappled by tentacles from some creature immune to acid. Now let's also say that there is another creature in the same space as the rogue who is blind. The rogue in such a situation according to the rules ought to get sneak attack against that blind opponent. He can attack that opponent as said opponent is in the same square and the rogue is effectively invisible to the blind opponent thereby denying dex. Sure, the situation is crazy and the rogue has to worry about being dissolved in the acid, has to worry about the grappling tentacle etc. But it does not mean that the rogue cannot gain advantage of his abilities.

Because a fighter in the same position would make exactly the same moves to get out?

That is about the only reason I can think of that makes my opinion messy. Afterall, why wouldn't everyone get the equivalent of SA if they were in the same situatioin. About the only justification I can give, is to look at the situation as any other. Rogue is considered invisible so he get's sneak attack. After all, a fighter can certainly discern the vital organs of a human but doesn't get sneak attack (although, that is a pretty weak counterargument). But it really is as simple as invisible means opponent denied dex means sneak attack.

Really, the answers have been given: if you don't like it because the justification for them isn't good enough in your opinion, go ahead and house rule it. beware the fact that the rogue will from now on go and jump in like Tommy Lee jones in Men in Black.

Unless you have a quote from official errata (presuming Dragon is not official errata - that I don't know for sure) the answer that has been given is not official. However, even if it is, rules wise it is inconsistent (hmm, certainly not the first time that has happened).

I concede that in reality it does not make much sense that the rogue would be able to sneak attack assuming that sneak attack requires the concentration and precision that has been noted before. But I am arguing from a purely rules based perspective. According to the rules we have the following information:

Rogue is invisible to senses of the worm.
An invisible character denies their opponent his or her dex unless the opponent has uncanny dodge.
Rogue does not threaten an area beyond his own square.
His opponent (or part of the stomach anyway) is in his own square.

Rules say, rogue gets sneak attack. Sure makes about as much sense as a evasion, but that is another issue.
 

On review, I'm inclined to agree with the Gamestoppers article on this one. The key point to me was the 'discernible anatomy' issue. To sneak attack, you need to be able to pick a particularly vulnerable spot to attack-hit 'here' rather than 'there'. The gullet or stomach of a worm doesn't provide any differentiation to pick ...
 

On review, I'm inclined to agree with the Gamestoppers article on this one. The key point to me was the 'discernible anatomy' issue. To sneak attack, you need to be able to pick a particularly vulnerable spot to attack-hit 'here' rather than 'there'. The gullet or stomach of a worm doesn't provide any differentiation to pick ...

I can't seem to convince myself that differentiation is necessary as the entire stomach seems like a vital organ to me.
 

Gaiden said:


I can't seem to convince myself that differentiation is necessary as the entire stomach seems like a vital organ to me.

Like I said earlier, since when does anyone know whether or not the "stomach" referred to in this case is a vital organ that is highly vulnerable? It has a higher AC than the outside of the Purple Worm, indicating it is extremely tough and hard, so I would assume it is not a highly vulnerable organ that will take extra damage if attacked. And since it's not a vulnerable organ, the Rogue would get no Sneak Attack damage as they must target a vital area to do so. That makes way more sense to me than allowing the Rogue free Sneak Attacks after he's been swallowed.
 

And if the whole stomach/gullet is a 'vital organ', wouldn't anyone get extra damage when hacking her way out?

Anything that makes a habit of swallowing creatures whole, teeth, claws, swords, spiked armor and all, probably isn't particularly vulnerable in the gullet area anyway. IMO, of course.
 

There seems to be two different views.

One - a vital organ is a sensitive, soft, delicate thing.
Two - a vital organ is exactly that - vital. It can be sensitive, soft, delicate as would a brain. However, it could also be tough, hard, and elastic much like a heart.

(you all can guess where I lie on the matter :))

Just because an organ has a tough exterior does not mean that it is a not a vital organ. To me it seems perfectly rational to say that the purple worm's stomach has a high AC and is a vital organ. It has a high AC expressly because it is used to swallowing

creatures whole, teeth, claws, swords, spiked armor and all.

However, that is a separate issue from whether or not it is vital or not. Once you bypass that tough lining, you get to the vital part.

However, this is all irrelevant anyway. The point of saying the entire organ was vital was to say that the rogue would have no problem pinpointing vital spots. But the point about all of it being vital does not matter. The fact that any part of it is vital is the important point. The rogue is invisible so he gets sneak attack end of story. The catch is if he can discern anatomy or not.

For all of D&D 3E, the precedent has nothing to do with the situation the rogue is (a.k.a. his environment) assuming he can see of course, but rather the particular qualities of the creature in question. There is a clear rules distinction between creatures with discernable anatomies and ones without. Creatures with no discernable anatomies, like oozes for example are clearly different than a purple worm. The purple worm most certainly has a discernable anatomy. Now, can the rogue discern that anatomy from inside the worm. I say yes - I consider the stomach of a creature to be discernable enough - you have a sphincter on the bottom going to the digestive tract and one above connecting to the throat. If you can discern the worms anatomy from the outside without knowing the exact anatomical positioin of these sphincters it seems all the more reasonable to say that the rogue can discern the anatomy from the inside. Remember discerning anatomy has nothing to do with the rogue's environment but with the creature in question. Therefore, the only thing that remains is being able to reach those vitals. Again, I would say that being surrounded by it defintely puts one in a position to target it.
 

Let's say the rogue has blindsight and tremorsense (to avoid problems of not being able to see).

That's a rather convenient assumption for your argument, wouldn't you say?

How many rogues with tremorsense do you know?

-Hyp.
 

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