Swallowed Thief

[Tar-Edhel]

How many rogues with tremorsense do you know?

-Hyp.

To apply the same logic: how many critters do you know for which the stomach is not a vital organ?

You might find some but they'll all be arthropods... vermins. Tough luck, the Purple Worm is a beast.

Would you consider the swallowed thief as being able to target another organ than the stomach?

And the AC argument is moot. The fact that it is hard to pierce has nothing to do with its importance to the creature. A brain is encased in a very hard armor: the skull. Nobody will argue that the brain is not a vital organ (hopefully )

A better argument would have been the elasticity of the worm's gizzard. The worm's description states that the gizzard closes as soon as a creature cuts its way out. And you seem to get out to the open, not into the abdominal cavity. Thus, no (or few) digestive fluids in the abdominal cavity.

Is that enough to cancel SA damage? DM's call.

Another question you might want to ask yourself...

Since there is nothing related to this in the rules, would you consider it that much unbalanced to allow the SA?

If not, why risk an argument with a distressed player (avg 25 hp damage/round in the stomach. Not many thieves will survive the ordeal since they do about 10 damage per round without SA at their best with small/tiny weapons).

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Agreed, but given that most of these creatures are unthinking beasts that just swallow everything in their path, it seems reasonable that evolution has designed these creatures so their gullet it less vulnerable than others. I don't see a T-Rex, choosing to swallow the guy with the sharp sword so much as it just swallowing him.

Vulnerability is not the point. The importance of the organ to the creature is. That's what a vital organ is. Not something fragile but something important. A heart made of Adamantium would be as vital as one made of flesh. Tougher and harder to break (no puns intended) but as vital...

Basically, if the rogue simply attacking the creature's gullet is a sneak attack because it's a "vulnerable" organ then shouldn't EVERYONE do more damage. I guess what I am trying to say is we don't know if in these creatures that swallow whole a lot haven't evolved so that their stomach can take the abuse and thus not be considered vulnerable, and thus not sneak attackable?

Everyone should do more damage... but SA is not really a 'logical' ability anyway. I cannot imagine a 20th level fighter as not having the basics of where the vital organs of his ennemies are located. With that logic, should you allow high-level fighter-type SA? What if the fighter took Knowledge skill: Vital organ location? Would it give SA?

Without knowing the specifics of a purple worm's anatony I'm going to go with what, I feel, is the spirit of the rules - you can't sneak attack when swallowed.

Purple Worm is a beast, not a vermin, not a worm... Beasts are considered: 'non-historical vertebrate creature with a reasonably normal anatomy and no magical or unusual abilities' (MM p. 5) A thief will know exactly where the vital organs are, if he needs to.

 

[Hypersmurf]

To apply the same logic: how many critters do you know for which the stomach is not a vital organ?

I don't see the relevance. If the rogue can't see, the worm has concealment. If the worm has any concealment, the rogue can't sneak attack, and suffers a miss chance. On the bright side, even if he's completely blind, he has the worm's square fairly well pinpointed...

-Hyp.

 

[IceBear]

Vulnerability is not the point. The importance of the organ to the creature is. That's what a vital organ is. Not something fragile but something important. A heart made of Adamantium would be as vital as one made of flesh. Tougher and harder to break (no puns intended) but as vital...



Everyone should do more damage... but SA is not really a 'logical' ability anyway. I cannot imagine a 20th level fighter as not having the basics of where the vital organs of his ennemies are located. With that logic, should you allow high-level fighter-type SA? What if the fighter took Knowledge skill: Vital organ location? Would it give SA?



Purple Worm is a beast, not a vermin, not a worm... Beasts are considered: 'non-historical vertebrate creature with a reasonably normal anatomy and no magical or unusual abilities' (MM p. 5) A thief will know exactly where the vital organs are, if he needs to.

Reread the sneak attack description. There is room for the DM to adjudicate whether or not the thief can reach a vulnerable organ. Sure he knows where it is, but he wouldn't be able to reach it. As a DM, I adjudicate that the stomach of these creatures aren't "vulnerable" with respect to sneak attack damage and thus no sneak attack damage. Understand what I was trying to say now? Stop bringing high level fighters into this and being sarcastic with me.

I, personally, don't like someone in a bad situation getting an advantage for being in a bad situation (much like Big Bad being more vulnerable because he brought friends to a fight with someone with Whirlwind and Great Cleave) and thus I wouldn't allow it here. If you don't like that rationale, it's dark, you can't maneuver very well, etc. Bottom line, I don't think you should be able to sneak attack when swallowed.

As an aside, I'd probably only allow sneak attack damage against a purple worm when attacking it's head. If you can't reach the head then no sneak attack damage. But that's just my adjudication of it.

IceBear

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Reread the sneak attack description. There is room for the DM to adjudicate whether or not the thief can reach a vulnerable organ. Sure he knows where it is, but he wouldn't be able to reach it. As a DM, I adjudicate that the stomach of these creatures aren't "vulnerable" with respect to sneak attack damage and thus no sneak attack damage. Understand what I was trying to say now? Stop bringing high level fighters into this and being sarcastic with me.

Honestly, I was not being sarcastic. I was using an example to illustrate my point.

I did understand what you were saying and I do understand the SA mechanisms. But you are arguing on two fronts:

- Can the thief reach a vulnerable area
- Is the stomach a vital organ

Your point to the first question has nothing to do with what might be your answer to the second one. My points addresses the second one while you answer with the first...

And stop being so agressive. I did mention that it was a DM's call, although I don't see the problem with allowing SA in this case.

 

[Caliban]

There seems to be two different views.

One - a vital organ is a sensitive, soft, delicate thing.
Two - a vital organ is exactly that - vital. It can be sensitive, soft, delicate as would a brain. However, it could also be tough, hard, and elastic much like a heart.

(you all can guess where I lie on the matter )

Your skin is sensitive, soft, delicate thing. Your skin is also an organ. Does that mean that your skin is a vital organ?

The stomach is a specialized sack of skin. It's no more vital than your skin.

For normal creatures, puncturing the stomach would spill bile and acid onto the internal organs, causing a lot of extra damage.

However, creatures with the swallow whole ability do not have this vulnerability. Their stomach is even less vulnerable. It automatically seals any holes punctured into it via muscular action, and doesn't spill acid into it's internal organs.

So the stomach lining itself isn't a vital organ, at least not for creatures with Swallow Whole. Other vital organs are nearby, but they are concealed from you by stomach lining. You can't actually see them, and you can't cut a hole that will let you see them because the stomach lining will seal any hole you make.

The most reasonable compromise ruling that I have seen is: If you want to sneak attack from within the stomach, it won't cut you a hole to escape from. To cut your way out of the stomach you have to cut through the side closest to the skin, away from any vital organs. The "vital organs" lay in the opposite direction. You can either try to cut yourself free, or soak up the damage and stab at it's internal organs.

 

[IceBear]

And stop being so agressive. I did mention that it was a DM's call, although I don't see the problem with allowing SA in this case.

Sorry, I quickly read your post and was having a bad day so I misread you. I apologize. We will agree to disagree here then as I do have a problem with allowing sneak attack.

IceBear

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Sorry, I quickly read your post and was having a bad day so I misread you. I apologize. We will agree to disagree here then as I do have a problem with allowing sneak attack.

No harm done. Had a big day myself and didn't take your comment as the perfect zen master (hum!) I am usually

The most reasonable compromise ruling that I have seen is: If you want to sneak attack from within the stomach, it won't cut you a whole to escape from. To cut your way out of the stomack you are cutting through the side closest to the skin. The "vital organs" lay in the opposite direction. You can either try to cut yourself free, or soak up the damage and stab at it's internal organs.

Makes perfect sense to me. Although might be tempted to roll randomly where the blow will land each round (50% exit/50% vital organs and SA damage for simplicity). The thief is taking 2d8+12 crushing damage and even if the he was standing still in a serene environment, how would he tell which way is the exit?

Could be a killer though. Let's hope our thief has some friends helping outside.

 

[Mahali]

Would you consider the swallowed thief as being able to target another organ than the stomach?

Nope.

Imagine being inside a big plastic ball in the dark, put a few spots of "vital organs" on the outside of imagined ball and while people roll the ball around you try stabbing those vital organs.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The thief is taking 2d8+12 crushing damage and even if the he was standing still in a serene environment, how would he tell which way is the exit?

Reminds me of the episode of South Park where Lemmiwinks the Gerbil Has an Adventure...

-Hyp.