Swallowed Thief

[dcollins]

(1) Theme-wise it it's counterintuitive for the rogue to be in a better tactical position having been eaten than when they're free.
(2) The stomach has a higher AC than the outside, and thus seems not to be "vital".
(3) The syomach has the special ability to heal itself after someone cuts a whole hole through it, and thus really seems not to be "vital".

Therefore I agree that the ruling of "no sneak attacks" seems to be the most reasonable.

 

[IceBear]

And if that's the case, EVERYONE should be able to do extra damage to escape. Despite your excellent example of the rogue in the pit of acid, I wouldn't allow the rogue to use sneak attack to escape just because it doesn't feel like that was what was intended.

Actually, it's a freaking worm, I don't know if it should be susceptible to sneak attack damage anyway Yes, it's got a head, but as for the rest of it, I don't think it's that vulnerable

IceBear

 

[Christian]

For all of D&D 3E, the precedent has nothing to do with the situation the rogue is (a.k.a. his environment) assuming he can see of course, but rather the particular qualities of the creature in question.

This is not the case. In particular:

The rogue cannot sneak attack while ... striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

(PH 47-48)

Clearly, there is an element of DM judgment regarding when a creature's vitals are beyond the reach of a rogue. And I believe that it is a much more reasonable ruling that a purple worm's vitals are out of reach of a swallowed rogue than the contrary ruling. The rogue must find a high place from which to attack in order to sneak attack a titan, and must hack his way out of the worm in order to sneak attack it.

 

[Gaiden]

That's a rather convenient assumption for your argument, wouldn't you say?

Like I said, before, the question is moot if the rogue can't see. And obviously most rogues are going to be blind in such circumstances. I would probably also go as far as to say that the acid in the stomach created a situation similar to being immersed in water (where creatures have concealment beyond a certain distance) except house rule that the distance where concealment starts is much closer than water as the stomach acid of the purple worm I have a hard time imagining is clear.

And acutally, I do have an NPC rogue with tremorsense in one of my FRCS games, but that is another matter.

(3) The stomach has the special ability to heal itself after someone cuts a whole hole through it, and thus really seems not to be "vital".

Sneak attacks still work against creatures with regeneration and fast healing, like trolls. Again, everything taken together seems to contradict suspension of disbelief and I think that is the problem. I am by no means saying it makes perfect rational sense to allow a rogue to sneak attack, rather that the rules allow for it and do not prevent it.

Actually, it's a freaking worm, I don't know if it should be susceptible to sneak attack damage anyway Yes, it's got a head, but as for the rest of it, I don't think it's that vulnerable

Take that up with the authors of the MM. The worm is not immune to criticals or sneak attack and has a discernable anatomy according to the MM.

This is not the case. In particular:

Read my previous post - all of it.

 

[LuYangShih]

At the end of the day, I would simply say the area where the creature is being crushed and melted down is not a vital area. Assuming a gigantic purple worm will have similar anatomy to the creatures on this planet, in this reality, is as I said earlier, futile. According to the official rules, the Rogue gains no Sneak Attack. End of story, for this thread anyway. If you disagree, fine, house rule it, but by the book Rogues do not get the Sneak Attack.

 

[Christian]

Pardon me if I seem to be changing sides, LuYangShih, but I don't think this is a 'the rules say' situation at all. The precise determination of whether a given creature's vitals are within reach of a given rogue in a given situation is always a judgment call for the DM. Sometimes it's going to be obvious-a human can always sneak attack an orc standing next to her on a level floor, a halfling can't sneak attack a titan in the same situation-but at other times, a decision will have to be made. The rules can't possibly list every conceivable situation, so at times, the DM will just have to look at the circumstances and make a ruling. The purple worm situation is one of those times, IMO. The 'Gamestoppers' column gives some weight to the 'no' answer, but that's just the ruling of some particular members of the WOTC staff, not an official game rule. (And it's not like the 'Gamestoppers' writers never screwed anything up, either ...)

I agree with them, and with you, about what's an appropriate ruling in this case, but that doesn't make Gaiden's ruling a 'house rule'.

(And Gaiden-I did read all of your post. I just don't agree with it. )

 

[Gaiden]

(And Gaiden-I did read all of your post. I just don't agree with it. )

I have tried to persuade people as best I can to my side . Guess we will have to just agree to disagree. I certainly think though that the rogue is within reach. The question is whether the worm has a discernable anatomy (at least to me). I will stop beating the dead horse though.

 

[IceBear]

I guess what I was saying was that a purple worm, while susceptible to a sneak attack, might only have a vulnerable spot in it's head. Thus, I could see where they say that you can't reach the purple worm's vital areas. I don't know what a purple worm's anatomy is like (I know that I can cut an earth worm in half and not kill it), but I was just postulating why it could be argued that way. The main reason I rule against it is because I don't like the idea that being in a position that disadvantageous to you (inside the worm) is actually a tactical benefit (always getting sneak attacks).

IceBear

 

[Gaiden]

The main reason I rule against it is because I don't like the idea that being in a position that disadvantageous to you (inside the worm) is actually a tactical benefit (always getting sneak attacks).

My spin was to view the situation similar to when a creature with improved grab attempts to grapple someone with CQC (or a similar situation). Sometimes a particular ability has a nasty side effect if not used with care. Also, I think of real world examples like a snake swallowing whole a mouse - the mouse is paralyzed or digested first before it is swallowed because it is dangerous to have something squirming inside of you.

Here is a perfect example of what I think when I think rogue swallowed by purple worm. I think goldfish swallowed by human - but the goldfish is in fact a lion fish and the human didn't know any better.

 

[IceBear]

My spin was to view the situation similar to when a creature with improved grab attempts to grapple someone with CQC (or a similar situation). Sometimes a particular ability has a nasty side effect if not used with care. Also, I think of real world examples like a snake swallowing whole a mouse - the mouse is paralyzed or digested first before it is swallowed because it is dangerous to have something squirming inside of you.

Here is a perfect example of what I think when I think rogue swallowed by purple worm. I think goldfish swallowed by human - but the goldfish is in fact a lion fish and the human didn't know any better.

Agreed, but given that most of these creatures are unthinking beasts that just swallow everything in their path, it seems reasonable that evolution has designed these creatures so their gullet it less vulnerable than others. I don't see a T-Rex, choosing to swallow the guy with the sharp sword so much as it just swallowing him.

Basically, if the rogue simply attacking the creature's gullet is a sneak attack because it's a "vulnerable" organ then shouldn't EVERYONE do more damage. I guess what I am trying to say is we don't know if in these creatures that swallow whole a lot haven't evolved so that their stomach can take the abuse and thus not be considered vulnerable, and thus not sneak attackable?

Without knowing the specifics of a purple worm's anatony I'm going to go with what, I feel, is the spirit of the rules - you can't sneak attack when swallowed.

IceBear